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OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

2021 Patriots Season:
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Pick Results: NO: 13.7% at NE: 86.3%

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Sep 26th

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Deus Irae

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...Two such players are left tackle Donovan Smith and center Ryan Jensen. Moving on from Smith, who has a $14.25 million hit, and Jensen, who has a $10 million hit, would leave no dead money on the cap, but it would leave the team looking for replacements in front of Tom Brady. On Wednesday, General Manager Jason Licht said he does not plan on moving forward without either player.


Licht said, via multiple reports, that the Bucs love both players and that he expects both players will remain with the team...


Buccaneers expect Ryan Jensen, Donovan Smith back next season - ProFootballTalk
 

Deus Irae

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...
“We had to socially distance just like everybody else. We had league protocols to follow. Family members to protect.


“And on top of that … none of us wanted to be the dude who got TOM BRADY sick!


Fournette said the Bucs had no team dinners during the season, no card games on the charter flights, no outings on the road...

Leonard Fournette: None of us wanted to give Tom Brady COVID - ProFootballTalk


 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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That pyramid has too much recency bias, but Marino's not a top 8 QB. I know this gets us into dead horse territory, but the top 8 QBs are locked in:

Brady
Starr
Montana
Baugh
Graham
Unitas
Staubach
Young


CHFF got that group right (though Brady's obviously passed those that had been rated ahead of him back in 2008, and there are arguments to be made about the slotting of individuals in the 8 because of the changing nature of the game pre-SB era). The debate starts after that, IMO, with a group of players all in a slot fight starting at 9.


The definitive list: Top 10 NFL quarterbacks

A couple of guys I think deserve strong consideration:

Sid Luckman, 4X Champion, 6X All-Pro
Bobby Layne, 3X Champion, 7X All-Pro

I love Staubach and Young, but if we're era-adjusting, these guys should get a look.

Steve Young, 1X Champion, 6X All-Pro
Roger Staubach, 2X Champion, 1X All-Pro (should be a lot more but still)

No doubt that it's harder to win championships and accolades in the expansion era with 32 teams than the older eras, but Baugh and Graham are included. Luckman and Layne might have a case to be 9-10 as a notch above the others in the slot fight.
 

Deus Irae

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A couple of guys I think deserve strong consideration:

Sid Luckman, 4X Champion, 6X All-Pro
Bobby Layne, 3X Champion, 7X All-Pro

I love Staubach and Young, but if we're era-adjusting, these guys should get a look.

Steve Young, 1X Champion, 6X All-Pro
Roger Staubach, 2X Champion, 1X All-Pro (should be a lot more but still)

No doubt that it's harder to win championships and accolades in the expansion era with 32 teams than the older eras, but Baugh and Graham are included. Luckman and Layne might have a case to be 9-10 as a notch above the others in the slot fight.
But, if you're going to to start looking into comparisons here, you also have to remember that Staubach's career was shortened by his service and didn't start his NFL career until he was 27 years old, and Young's window as a starter was shortened by being behind Montana at the tail end of the era without free agency and, therefore, didn't become a permanent starter until age 30.

And that's nothing against your two candidates, but is something to add to the equation.
 
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1960Pats

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Rodgers is so obviously about his stats. Hits a short pass on 3rd and long to pad his completion %. Takes a sack to avoid messing up his pass attempts. I see it every time he plays. No wonder teammates call out his leadership. The guy is a selfish diva.
The thing that hurts Rodgers most of all is his total lack of comebacks. Even the few he has are against weak teams. Yet, the mediots want to call him Captain Comeback.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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But, if you're going to to start looking into comparisons here, you also have to remember that Staubach's career was shortened by his service and didn't start his NFL career until he was 27 years old, and Young's window as a starter was shortened by being behind Montana at the tail end of the era without free agency and, therefore, didn't become a permanent starter until age 30.

Good point.
 

wpdougie2180

On the Game Day Roster
I tried to use google translator to understand this post and it didn't work.
Why is Matthew Stafford on the picture instead of Bobby Layne & why is Michael Vick on the same picture instead of Matt Ryan. And that is just the beginning of what is wrong with the rankings/picture.....Is that better for you
 

Deus Irae

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The NFL fined Buccaneers safety Antoine Winfield Jr. for flashing Tyreek Hill‘s signature peace sign in the receiver’s face in the fourth quarter of Super Bowl LV.


Winfield said afterward that he gladly would pay any fine, which ended up being $7,815.


Winfield now is turning the fine into philanthropy by giving a matching amount to the Buccaneers Youth Leadership Program, which entails players and staff members serving as mentors for 25 students at a middle school in Tampa...

Antoine Winfield Jr. matching Super Bowl fine with charity donation - ProFootballTalk
 

chris_in_sunnyvale

In the Starting Line-Up
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Otto Graham was an excellent QB. That being said, having Paul Brown as your HC was a monstrous advantage. Brown invented film study, was the first to have full time assistants, first to have practice squads...he reinvented the game. Belichick is a master at finding advantages at the margins. Brown was so ahead of his time that he offered a core advantage that benefitted Graham and his tally of titles.

Regards,
Chris
 

Zarozzor

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
A couple of guys I think deserve strong consideration:

Sid Luckman, 4X Champion, 6X All-Pro
Bobby Layne, 3X Champion, 7X All-Pro

I love Staubach and Young, but if we're era-adjusting, these guys should get a look.

Steve Young, 1X Champion, 6X All-Pro
Roger Staubach, 2X Champion, 1X All-Pro (should be a lot more but still)

No doubt that it's harder to win championships and accolades in the expansion era with 32 teams than the older eras, but Baugh and Graham are included. Luckman and Layne might have a case to be 9-10 as a notch above the others in the slot fight.
I really wish they had Win/Loss records for Baugh and Luckman.
 

Zarozzor

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Otto Graham was an excellent QB. That being said, having Paul Brown as your HC was a monstrous advantage. Brown invented film study, was the first to have full time assistants, first to have practice squads...he reinvented the game. Belichick is a master at finding advantages at the margins. Brown was so ahead of his time that he offered a core advantage that benefitted Graham and his tally of titles.

Regards,
Chris
I understand all of that, but I think if someone is making a Top 10 Quarterbacks of All Time list, Otto Graham should be no lower than 3 in my opinion. I see lots of people do this, and some of my friends are guilty of it too. They'll give their 10 quarterbacks, and throw in Graham, and sometimes Unitas or Starr at 8-10. What that's telling me is their list is more like Top 10 of the Super Bowl era and those guys get a token mention.

Otto Graham did this

His record was 105-17-4 or 57-13-1 depending on where you look. He also had the accolades and dominant stats for his era.


1946: 12-2, 1st in scoring, won Championship
1947: 12-1-1, 1st in scoring, won Championship
1948: 14-0, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1949: 9-1-2, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1950: 10-2, 4th in scoring, won Championship
1951: 11-1, 3rd in scoring, lost Championship
1952: 8-4, 3rd in scoring, lost Championship
1953: 11-1, 4th in scoring, lost Championship
1954: 9-3, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1955: 9-2-1, 1st in scoring, won Championship

And the year after Graham left
1956: 5-7, 11th in scoring


I had the below saved in my notes after seeing it years ago

How big of a difference did one man make? Graham retired after the 1955 season. The 1956 Browns returned their other ten offensive starters and had the leagues best defense - allowing 41 fewer points than the 1955 title team. They went 5-7.
 

DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I understand all of that, but I think if someone is making a Top 10 Quarterbacks of All Time list, Otto Graham should be no lower than 3 in my opinion. I see lots of people do this, and some of my friends are guilty of it too. They'll give their 10 quarterbacks, and throw in Graham, and sometimes Unitas or Starr at 8-10. What that's telling me is their list is more like Top 10 of the Super Bowl era and those guys get a token mention.

Otto Graham did this

His record was 105-17-4 or 57-13-1 depending on where you look. He also had the accolades and dominant stats for his era.


1946: 12-2, 1st in scoring, won Championship
1947: 12-1-1, 1st in scoring, won Championship
1948: 14-0, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1949: 9-1-2, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1950: 10-2, 4th in scoring, won Championship
1951: 11-1, 3rd in scoring, lost Championship
1952: 8-4, 3rd in scoring, lost Championship
1953: 11-1, 4th in scoring, lost Championship
1954: 9-3, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1955: 9-2-1, 1st in scoring, won Championship

And the year after Graham left
1956: 5-7, 11th in scoring


I had the below saved in my notes after seeing it years ago

How big of a difference did one man make? Graham retired after the 1955 season. The 1956 Browns returned their other ten offensive starters and had the leagues best defense - allowing 41 fewer points than the 1955 title team. They went 5-7.

So he was the Tom Brady of his era ? JK
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
PatsFans.com Supporter
I understand all of that, but I think if someone is making a Top 10 Quarterbacks of All Time list, Otto Graham should be no lower than 3 in my opinion. I see lots of people do this, and some of my friends are guilty of it too. They'll give their 10 quarterbacks, and throw in Graham, and sometimes Unitas or Starr at 8-10. What that's telling me is their list is more like Top 10 of the Super Bowl era and those guys get a token mention.

Otto Graham did this

His record was 105-17-4 or 57-13-1 depending on where you look. He also had the accolades and dominant stats for his era.


1946: 12-2, 1st in scoring, won Championship
1947: 12-1-1, 1st in scoring, won Championship
1948: 14-0, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1949: 9-1-2, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1950: 10-2, 4th in scoring, won Championship
1951: 11-1, 3rd in scoring, lost Championship
1952: 8-4, 3rd in scoring, lost Championship
1953: 11-1, 4th in scoring, lost Championship
1954: 9-3, 2nd in scoring, won Championship
1955: 9-2-1, 1st in scoring, won Championship

And the year after Graham left
1956: 5-7, 11th in scoring


I had the below saved in my notes after seeing it years ago

How big of a difference did one man make? Graham retired after the 1955 season. The 1956 Browns returned their other ten offensive starters and had the leagues best defense - allowing 41 fewer points than the 1955 title team. They went 5-7.

I’m working on a spreadsheet right now and will post in a new thread when finished. I’m trying to assign a numerical rating to each quarterback based only on objective accomplishments and accolades (no stats, eye tests, woulda coulda shouldas, nostalgia). Also adjusting for pre-merger and post-merger because of the difficulty to win championships now versus then, but the adjustment isn’t extreme.

I’ve been just taking Graham‘s AAFL accomplishments and giving them 50% value, which aligns with his NFL vs AAFL splits. He and Montana are basically a dead heat at #2 depending on formula tweaks.
 

Zarozzor

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
I’m working on a spreadsheet right now and will post in a new thread when finished. I’m trying to assign a numerical rating to each quarterback based only on objective accomplishments and accolades (no stats, eye tests, woulda coulda shouldas, nostalgia). Also adjusting for pre-merger and post-merger because of the difficulty to win championships now versus then, but the adjustment isn’t extreme.

I’ve been just taking Graham‘s AAFL accomplishments and giving them 50% value, which aligns with his NFL vs AAFL splits. He and Montana are basically a dead heat at #2 depending on formula tweaks.
That's my top 3. Brady obviously is #1, but I flip flop between Graham and Montana at 2/3. It gets a little tougher 4-10.
 
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