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OT : European Soccer League (ESL)

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Sep 12th

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Scotty

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Rumours confirmed today that 12 of the biggest European soccer clubs want to break away and create a new league. Causing major eruptions from fans in the street to soccer governing bodies (UEFA/FIFA) and actual Governments. Universal condemnation with mega rich owners being blamed for trying to kill the grass roots game origins and turn it into a money making bonanza for said owners. (Comparisons being made to the NFL given that 3 of the owners are US eg Glaziers and Stan Kronke)

Frankly I do not really care as soccer in the UK sold out to TV companies and money making enterprises a long time ago.

This may get ugly
 

Scotty

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Cant even get this correct.....lol , it is called the European Super League
 

Scotty

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
It is causing a lot of anger and disapointment with the supporters of the various UK clubs but when did multi billionaire owners ever care about them. I think it would create some exciting games if it goes ahead but at what cost
 

patsfanfromoversea

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
It is causing a lot of anger and disapointment with the supporters of the various UK clubs but when did multi billionaire owners ever care about them. I think it would create some exciting games if it goes ahead but at what cost
I think it would affect every national league and the national teams so much that it won't happen. Those players in the ESL won't play for their national Team anymore, who wants that ? It is Bad for competition and i can't imagine they would like the idea. Soccer has become money matters only
 

resdubwhite

In the Starting Line-Up
The fallout would be catastrophic. soccer is built on the over 100 years of open competition relegation/promotion and qualification for the upper tier competitions. there are 90 plus professional clubs in England that have rabid support. to remove that and generate 12 European franchises would kill the game in these towns. Football has a long working class history and is already overpriced for a lot of people to go and see.

I hope the leagues UEFA and FIFA go down hard on these clubs. Its a pure money grab and needs to be quashed. Relegate any club immediately on them signing agreement to join the super league and ban any of their players for playing international football. Not that I can see a way to do that easily mind you.
For full disclosure I'm a Man Utd fan and am appalled by the clubs behaviour, especially as so many of those teams are struggling through COVID. I could go on for hours but the franchise model for soccer is not a good fit.

found this quote this morning from bobby Robson. Sums it up for me.


“What is a club in any case? Not the buildings or the directors or the people who are paid to represent it.
It’s not the television contracts, get-out clauses, marketing departments or executive boxes.
“It’s the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging, the pride in your city.
It’s a small boy clambering up the stadium steps for the very first time, gripping his father’s hand,
gawping at that hallowed stretch of turf beneath him, and without being able to do a thing about it, falling in love.”

I remember the first time my father brought me to a game. I was hooked.
I remember doing the same with my eldest son. that walk up to the stand as depicted brilliantly in Fever pitch by Nick Hornby rings through. Football is about fans. it is not about owners. and it never should be.
 
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Scotty

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I am not in favour of this League but interested , but I did hear just recently on Sky that a spokesperson said their legal advise was it could not be stopped as it would go against European Law (which is funny given that at least 3 clubs are from the UK an not subject to EU Law)

Sound like some lawyers are going to get rich ......lol. Yes , as they say a lot to play for.

You are lucky at least you can see some good football , Scottish football went down the tubes a long time ago
 

resdubwhite

In the Starting Line-Up
I am not in favour of this League but interested , but I did hear just recently on Sky that a spokesperson said their legal advise was it could not be stopped as it would go against European Law (which is funny given that at least 3 clubs are from the UK an not subject to EU Law)

Sound like some lawyers are going to get rich ......lol. Yes , as they say a lot to play for.

You are lucky at least you can see some good football , Scottish football went down the tubes a long time ago
the only thing that can stop it is fans voting on their feet and clubs not buying in. It dies immediately for me if Bayern Munich don't join. They're too big a club not to be involved. If fans boycott season tickets/merchandise that too will throw a spanner in the works.
 

Scotty

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
@resdubwhite : What do you think of the Man U season so far ?...........I do not wish to appear rude but sometimes I wonder how they can be second in the league given some of their performances but other times they look the Man U of old....something not quite right yet ?......I do think they should hold onto Cavani though...he is getting older but can still find the back of the net. Still 1 or two players needed ?
 

resdubwhite

In the Starting Line-Up
@resdubwhite : What do you think of the Man U season so far ?...........I do not wish to appear rude but sometimes I wonder how they can be second in the league given some of their performances but other times they look the Man U of old....something not quite right yet ?......I do think they should hold onto Cavani though...he is getting older but can still find the back of the net. Still 1 or two players needed ?
Terrible start of the season and when they had control of the table in Jan/Feb they threw away a lot of points. I don't really think that city team are as good as everyone says they are. United could have won that league but for various reasons they bottled it.
Europa League trophy is a must. Ole appears to be improving as a manager but I still have my doubts. McTominay/Fred seem to be improving in the backbone of the team. Bruno is a genius. Maguire improving. Personally I'd love another 12 months of Cavani he just has so much more passion for the game than Martial. So if he goes Haaland would be just a great replacement. That and another Roy Keane should be the missing pieces.
Yeah, overall I think they're a lot better than 12 months ago, but you could argue this is a season of lost opportunity.
 

Scotty

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I agree with you I dont think city are as good as they appear , they are beatable .......might sound silly but you need certain types of players and tactics to beat them ...anyway I hope you get your wishes for the players you mentioned.

Back to the NFL , I cant wait for the draft to start but dont know if I will stay up !!
 

resdubwhite

In the Starting Line-Up
I agree with you I dont think city are as good as they appear , they are beatable .......might sound silly but you need certain types of players and tactics to beat them ...anyway I hope you get your wishes for the players you mentioned.

Back to the NFL , I cant wait for the draft to start but dont know if I will stay up !!
This year I will. I've taken a year off work so don't have to worry about getting up early next day. I would never do it if they were picking in twenties to be hit with a trade down. 15 should be roughly 3am. Just me a blanket and a bottle of lagavulin. Sorted
 

Bill Lee

What, me worry?
For full disclosure I'm a Man Utd fan...
Your post made me think of the The Ringer's piece:


In particular:

Don’t misread me here. All the criticisms of the big clubs are correct. They are greedy, bullying, self-interested, and perfectly happy to torch many of the attributes that make soccer wonderful if it means a tiny advantage for them. Somewhere there is a parable about a warlord whose rebellion reduced the country to a desert; he didn’t care if it was a desert, as long as he got to be king. I’m pretty sure he was a Manchester United fan.
On the other hand, I’m an American soccer fan who pays money to watch European club football on television. I am way more excited to watch games when the world’s best players are involved, which typically means when the big clubs play each other. Complaining about the Super League makes me feel a little like the guy who’s upset about the demise of independent bookstores even though he orders from Amazon 90 percent of the time, or the guy who’s sad about the struggles of indie bands even though he’s spent 15 years streaming nothing but Drake albums.

It's a very interesting situation, the balance between money and sentiment.

Just about the only thing I can say in favor of the European Super League is that it’s at least an attempt to clarify the situation. It says: Between the imperative of money and the imperative of sentiment, money wins; the big clubs, not UEFA or FIFA, are the real power in the sport; soccer should be an American-style spectator sport oriented toward the modern global TV audience, not traditional local fan bases; preserving the game’s history matters less than catering to the conditions of right now.

Call me a cynic, but IMO big money will win. For the big clubs, it really isn't hasn't been about the local fan bases for a long time anyway, they are global brands. The article points out how ironic it is that the Premier League is complaining after they were formed by the big English clubs in the 90s because they wanted to keep more money for themselves. It also points out how hopeless it is to expect athletes to favor an event that only happens once in four years whose profits are largely kept by FIFA over the clubs that are paying them $millions on an ongoing basis.

As he suggests more than once, there seems to be an element of virtue signalling going on that some don't seem to be conscious of:

The conundrum, in other words, is that European club soccer is being steered by two contradictory imperatives at the same time. There’s an imperative of attention and money, which tells the big clubs to act as though they’re the center of the universe, and there’s an imperative of sentiment, which tells them to act as responsible members of a community. And both those imperatives come from the same source—you and me, and anyone else who loves the current league structure, feel nauseated at the thought of losing promotion and relegation, and yet would rather watch Manchester City–Barcelona inside an active volcano than tune in to Fulham-Burnley in a resort.

If you watch what people do instead of what they say, I think you'll realize some sort of reckoning is going to happen sooner rather than later.

I imagine the founders don't want relegation because they are taking a big risk to jump into this league and they don't want to have a bad run of form bump them out shortly after taking such a risk. Besides, where would they get relegated to if UEFA/FIFA bans them? Maybe have some sort of "founder's amnesty" for the first N years to protect them? Who knows, a lot of big time negotiating must be going on right about now.
 

resdubwhite

In the Starting Line-Up
Call me a cynic, but IMO big money will win. For the big clubs, it really isn't hasn't been about the local fan bases for a long time anyway, they are global brands. The article points out how ironic it is that the Premier League is complaining after they were formed by the big English clubs in the 90s because they wanted to keep more money for themselves. It also points out how hopeless it is to expect athletes to favor an event that only happens once in four years whose profits are largely kept by FIFA over the clubs that are paying them $millions on an ongoing basis.
Those clubs don't survive without local support or "legacy" support as the owners call it. football is about not just the big clubs. the ladder system must work. Clubs lower down must be allowed the opportunity to get promoted and grow. football is about the push for final 4 CL places, promotion and relegation races. That is why it remains relevent year through. the PL move in 90's successed because it stayed through to those ideals. The money generated in those moves built proper stadia, made football more family friendly and began the move to get rid of casual racism from the terraces. Its not an apples to apples comparision.
If this leads to the end of the world cup football fans are absolutely the losers and 12 rich americans, russians, and varying other owners are the winners. It is not a zero sum game. Far more will be lost that won in this move.
I imagine the founders don't want relegation because they are taking a big risk to jump into this league and they don't want to have a bad run of form bump them out shortly after taking such a risk. Besides, where would they get relegated to if UEFA/FIFA bans them? Maybe have some sort of "founder's amnesty" for the first N years to protect them? Who knows, a lot of big time negotiating must be going on right about now.
Of course they don't, but they build their house on a sandy foundation. Their bet is that they don't need grassroots support to succeed with this. their bet is that their players don't want to play international football. their bet is that British and EU legislators will do nothing about it. They are holding a losing docket for all of those reasons.

The European Super League: what can Boris Johnson do about it?
 

Bill Lee

What, me worry?
Those clubs don't survive without local support or "legacy" support as the owners call it. football is about not just the big clubs. the ladder system must work. Clubs lower down must be allowed the opportunity to get promoted and grow. football is about the push for final 4 CL places, promotion and relegation races. That is why it remains relevent year through. the PL move in 90's successed because it stayed through to those ideals. The money generated in those moves built proper stadia, made football more family friendly and began the move to get rid of casual racism from the terraces. Its not an apples to apples comparision.
Thank you for your post, it's really informative and well written.

I will have to push back, though.

It's really emphatic, using terms like don't and must to describe something that is definitely up for debate.

It seems to me you are asserting that the NFL can't survive just because the Jets and the Browns suck year after year and aren't replaced by another team that often sucks till they too get kicked out of the EPL to be replaced by another team that sucks, soap, rinse, repeat. Sure, some stick, but most do not. We still have loyal Jet and Brown fans attending the games and brain washing their kids into being Jet and Brown fans despite the ongoing suckage. Heck, the Browns are on the verge of being relevant again.

If this leads to the end of the world cup football fans are absolutely the losers and 12 rich americans, russians, and varying other owners are the winners. It is not a zero sum game. Far more will be lost that won in this move.
In reality it seems it was not those owners that led the charge for this new entity, so it feels to me like jingoism is being weaponized. It is fair to have a go at JPMorganChase for financing it all, IMO.

Of course they don't, but they build their house on a sandy foundation. Their bet is that they don't need grassroots support to succeed with this. their bet is that their players don't want to play international football. their bet is that British and EU legislators will do nothing about it. They are holding a losing docket for all of those reasons.

The European Super League: what can Boris Johnson do about it?
I don't think your article supports your point, it seems it is saying all the challenges will be uphill fights, even the legislative one because it may be viewed as blocking foreign investment.

I do feel players will favor getting large paychecks regularly, or their shot at eventually making one of the big clubs and getting such checks, over their chance once in four years to play for next to nothing but pride while their work lines FIFA's pockets.

Besides, if you are right, what are you afraid of?

EPL and similar leagues will still be there, the Super League will get stale and will be widely rejected by the man in the street, the Super League will collapse and the big clubs will have no choice but to put their tail between their legs and beg for forgiveness, kind of like how key USFL players all ended up signing NFL contracts once the USFL collapsed.

It could be a moment where this is settled once and for all, world football needs grass roots support and the big clubs need to embrace it, just like US football learned via the USFL and arena football that there just isn't a big enough market to support multiple leagues.

I think the fear is the one the article speaks to, our words and our deeds are different, we really do want to see the elite players play against other elite players, and the roots of our grass root support aren't as deep as we think they are.

I have relatives in the UK and their county has a team that went up to the EPL in recent times and were quickly relegated. I don't think having that binds them any closer to the EPL than if they had just been fans of a big club. In fact it may be the opposite, feeling peer pressure to like a product that just isn't very good and to not like one that is good probably keeps many from embracing football. That's the kind of reaction I got from my cousin.

I don't think their ability to go to their local pitch and watch that team is much different than me being able to go to my local field and watch college football. We both get a nice day out, a chance to partake in drunken revelry and tribal bonding if we choose, and share a bunch of local pride even if many of the players come from far away places.
 

Scotty

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I see one of the 12 , Chelsea , are starting to have second thoughts !
 

resdubwhite

In the Starting Line-Up
really emphatic, using terms like don't and must to describe something that is definitely up for debate
And yet here we are. The ESL is dead.
It seems to me you are asserting that the NFL can't survive just because the Jets and the Browns suck year after year and aren't replaced by another team that often sucks
Cannot compare the nfl to Premier league football. Different models suit different sports. One for 50 plus years after the merger and one for close to 150 years
Besides, if you are right, what are you afraid of?
A money grab that kills grassroots football. Franchised football clubs and the death of international football. The end of the pyramid system.
do feel players will favor getting large paychecks regularly, or their shot at eventually making one of the big clubs and getting such checks, over their chance once in four years to play for next to nothing but pride while their work lines FIFA's pockets.
The model they were looking at was the nfl model. Restrictive market. Ownership control of TV rights and forced wage cap. Salaries would have decreased due to the reduction in football and a much smaller market for their services. Players agents were warning this.
 

resdubwhite

In the Starting Line-Up
Woodward gone at man utd. Glazers next. Pères done at real too I bet. Wonder if Liverpool force Henry out
 

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