OLine's 2-4 Record Crappiness Stabilized, 7 wins in a row now

[DropKickFlutie]

Some O-line thoughts from Lazar...

This sounds like a great idea. Kudos to Lazar for coming up with it. Karras at LG and Onwenu at RT.

I'm also impressed with Herron at LT, he's adequate at LT and a horrible RT. Some guys are just better on a different side.

 

[ashley]

This sounds like a great idea. Kudos to Lazar for coming up with it. Karras at LG and Onwenu at RT

Lol

 

[venecol]

Some O-line thoughts from Lazar...

So basically Lazar agrees with what @DropKickFlutie and @captain stone have been saying for 2 months. He can't be right, can he?

 

[Simpelton]

After putting in some very good work this week I wouldn't mind seeing the backups cycled into the lineup more often, especially Cajuste who impressed me a couple times by holding the edge so Jones could scramble

 

[chasa]

solder has been incredibly bad for the giants, I'd love to see him get cut, and for the pats to sign him on the cheap, even just for some depth, to see if its the enviroment.

 

[ashley]

So basically Lazar agrees with what @DropKickFlutie and @captain stone have been saying for 2 months. He can't be right, can he?

ha, pretty much.

 

[mgcolby]

So basically Lazar agrees with what @DropKickFlutie and @captain stone have been saying for 2 months. He can't be right, can he?

I think this is more about timing and disruption to the continuity. I think had they known Brown was going to miss significant time they would have made some changes sooner. But I always go back to not wanting to disrupt two positions to fix one. But now I think (and agree) with moving two players to re-adjust the line.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

So basically Lazar agrees with what @DropKickFlutie and @captain stone have been saying for 2 months. He can't be right, can he?

ha, pretty much.

Not really. This is about the mess with injuries, Covid etc and how to deal with it.

The slow ones wanted Brown at LT, Wynn at G, Onwenu at RT after none have been practicing at those spots all summer.

Kind of dumb tbh. Let's play you at a spot you haven't been preparing for. And of course we did the exact opposite of what they said.

 

[Ring 6]

I think this is more about timing and disruption to the continuity. I think had they known Brown was going to miss significant time they would have made some changes sooner. But I always go back to not wanting to disrupt two positions to fix one. But now I think (and agree) with moving two players to re-adjust the line.

Onwenu is a G. He played out of position last year because there was no room at G and an opening at T.
Playing him out of position in order to get Ted Karras on the field doesn’t make sense.

 

[mgcolby]

Onwenu is a G. He played out of position last year because there was no room at G and an opening at T.
Playing him out of position in order to get Ted Karras on the field doesn’t make sense.

Except he played better at RT last year than he has at G so far this year. With that said it could very well be the guy playing next to him and the return of Brown would help solidify his play. But at the moment, until Brown returns, the line needs something.

 

[Ring 6]

Except he played better at RT last year than he has at G so far this year. The line needs something.

I don’t think he’s been the problem at all. He had a rough game against Vea but that guys a beast.
I don’t think moving guys out of position because “it’s bad let’s try something different even if we think it’s worse” is a plan.

There are good players on this OL. It needs time to gel. Cajuste should be the RT until
Brown returns.

 

[mgcolby]

I don’t think he’s been the problem at all. He had a rough game against Vea but that guys a beast.
I don’t think moving guys out of position because “it’s bad let’s try something different even if we think it’s worse” is a plan.

There are good players on this OL. It needs time to gel. Cajuste should be the RT until
Brown returns.

I'm not really arguing against you. I just know the current rendition of this line has not been good. I am up for anything the coaching staff thinks might work and I am not saying they agree with Lazar. But it still goes to the question of how much is Mac causing problems by making the wrong protection calls. I think the issues are multi-faceted. Young QB making the protection calls, lose your beast RT, lose your O-Line coach just before the season and have an underperforming LT in Wynn. Those are the problems that I see and I am not saying I have the answers and, while impressed with how the backups played, it was against the Texans D-line. But I wonder if the kid made better protection calls as well.

The latter I am guessing we won't know until after the season if ever.

 

[Betterthanmost]

so for players that are not vaxxed, they run the potential to miss the superbowl for close contact situations. I need super natural patience with some people.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not really arguing against you. I just know the current rendition of this line has not been good. I am up for anything the coaching staff thinks might work and I am not saying they agree with Lazar. But it still goes to how much is Mac causing problems by making the wrong protection calls. I think the issues are multi-faceted. Young QB making the protection calls, lose your beast RT, lose your O-Line coach just before the season and have an underperforming LT in Wynn. Those are the problems that I see and I am not saying I have the answers and, while impressed with how the backups played it was against the Texans D-line. But I wonder if the kid made better protection calls as well.

The latter I am guessing we won't know until after the season if ever.

I don’t see an issue with protection calls, blitz pickup or people knowing what they are supposed to do, I see one on one battles being lost.
We have throw the ball 190 times completing 71% with only 11 sacks. I’m not sure why this is being called a mess.
The bigger issue has been penalties and fumbles at the worst time.
The OL stood out in the running game against Tampa, but we never really tried to run.
I think this is being overblown quite a bit, probably based upon the expectation people had that the OL was going to dominate the run game and we would run for 200 yards a game and not have to pass.

 

[mgcolby]

I don’t see an issue with protection calls, blitz pickup or people knowing what they are supposed to do, I see one on one battles being lost.
We have throw the ball 190 times completing 71% with only 11 sacks. I’m not sure why this is being called a mess.
The bigger issue has been penalties and fumbles at the worst time.
The OL stood out in the running game against Tampa, but we never really tried to run.
I think this is being overblown quite a bit, probably based upon the expectation people had that the OL was going to dominate the run game and we would run for 200 yards a game and not have to pass.

I agree, but he has been hit a lot. Sacks don't tell the whole story. I also think you are right with expectations and the run game. They should be a lot better than they have been.

But its not so much the blitz pickups etc... its the late stunts, not peeling off on double teams to pick up a free rusher etc..that has been a major issue thus far.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree, but he has been hit a lot. Sacks don't tell the whole story. I also think you are right with expectations and the run game. They should be a lot better than they have been.

But its not so much the blitz pickups etc... its the late stunts, not peeling off on double teams to pick up a free rusher etc..that has been a major issue thus far.

QBs get hit. It hasn’t been that bad for the amount of time we have thrown the ball.

If it’s a decision making issue (again I’ve seen one on one beats as much more tha problem) then that is something that easily corrects itself and shouldn’t require change, because these are experienced players.

Ive been distractedly looking for OL pressure stats while watching the Sox, if you have them it would definitely add to the discussion.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree, but he has been hit a lot. Sacks don't tell the whole story. I also think you are right with expectations and the run game. They should be a lot better than they have been.

But its not so much the blitz pickups etc... its the late stunts, not peeling off on double teams to pick up a free rusher etc..that has been a major issue thus far.

Here are some interesting numbers.

2023 Advanced Quarterback Stats | NFL Metrics | FantasyPros

View 2023 Advanced Quarterback Stats including Air Yards, Deep Ball Passing, Pocket Time, and more. See how QBs perform across the NFL's key metrics.

www.fantasypros.com

Jones has been blitzed more than any NFL QB. 10 have been sacked more but a bunch have 1 or 2 fewer sacks in less attempts, so at worst he’s been sacked an average amount of times.
There have been a total 355 sacks in the NFL, with Monday night game to go, so the average team has allowed 11.1 sacks. Jones has been sacked exactly the average, but has thrown the 9th most passes.

Jones has been knocked down the most 24 times, all QBs have been knocked down 422 times, so that would be 14 on average, so he is getting knocked down 2 times a game more than average. (Josh Allen has been knocked down 20 times, Herbert 19 FYI)
Jones has been hurried 9 times and the average is 14.

So while throwing the 9 most times, getting blitzed the most of any QB, he has been sacked the average amount, hurried once fewer per game than average and kicked down twice more than average.

Hardly historically bad. Very average, and I’d call the run blocking average in every game except Tampa when it was atrocious.

Seems like the kind of thing that should improve as you get deeper into the season, hopefully get your best OL back, and look at games 10-17 of a rookie QBs career rather than 1-5.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Onwenu is a G. He played out of position last year because there was no room at G and an opening at T.
Playing him out of position in order to get Ted Karras on the field doesn’t make sense.

onwenu may indeed be a guard and his play at guard his been decent when he does not have to think or communicate.

teams are running stunts against us at a record pace because onwenu is slow to figure out what he is seeing and even slower to communicate.

I thought Wynn was playing terrible this year, and make no mistake, he is, but not all of it is on Wynn. part of it is onwenu’s lack of communication hanging him out to dry!

 

[Ring 6]

onwenu may indeed be a guard and his play at guard his been decent when he does not have to think or communicate.

teams are running stunts against us at a record pace because onwenu is slow to figure out what he is seeing and even slower to communicate.

I thought Wynn was playing terrible this year, and make no mistake, he is, but not all of it is on Wynn. part of it is onwenu’s lack of communication hanging him out to dry!

I don’t agree that this is what’s happening but if it is why would onwenu’s communication be any different at T?
I’m curious how you gauge communication on film.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I don’t agree that this is what’s happening but if it is why would onwenu’s communication be any different at T?
I’m curious how you gauge communication on film.

There's verbal and non-verbal stuff you look at. Thuney and Wynn would talk a lot, ID defenders, give each a little slap at times. You can look at the play itself and see how a player responds before, during and after a play.

There are things you can look for without literally hearing what they're saying.

We've handled stunts and delayed pressure poorly all year. Whether teams are just throwing a few or throwing a lot it's been an issue up until yesterday (for obvious reasons with Houston).