Observable Universe Map Issue

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doctahwhodat

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OK, so the observable universe is 95 Billion Light Years in diameter. Which at first defies logic since the universe is only 15.5 Billion years old. So even located at the center as we are, it would take nearly three times the life span of the Universe's age for the outermost light to have reached earth, so something is amiss.

Scientific minds have explained the explanation to me which I accept. That explanation is that space itseld expands faster than the speed of light or at least it did at one point.

This means one very interesting thing. Does this means that it is possible for "something" to travel faster than the speed of light? (which of course we have always been told no)

Well, the answer seems to possibly be "maybe". If you could hijack space time then somehow "locate" yourself or your craft within a bubble inside space time and move the bubble faster than light, you would not be violating Einstein's law.

I am not a scientist and I am not well versed in this topic. However, there are now many articles about this on line.

THis however, is not my point.

My point is an observation I had this morning. They have "mapped" the observable universe. It is in fact like a massive sphere with earth essentially at the very center and the limit we can see is roughly 45 Billion light years in all directions.

Since everything we look at in space both deep and near is looking into the past, it appeared to me that this is not really a map at all. It is rather a representation of the universe appears to look like from earth at this present time. And it is guaranteed that it is entirely inaccurate. In other words something 1 billion light years away, we are seeing it as it was 1 billion years ago. Not only is that true for every object, but since it is so many galaxies and clusters, and so many varying massive distances and hence time drifts that the whole map is more like a wobble of truth.

End on this example... "The Bootes Void" is a truly enormous empty region of space that is so large with nothing in it that scientists consider it eery. Well since we are seeing what it looked like so very long ago, it is likely that void no longer even exists.

So Doctahwhodat has broken science.. mic drop

"Forced to home for Covid Compliance.. Doctahwhodat spends his time breaking science"
 

Tony2046

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I love this stuff but am no scientist.

Time is relative. So is the speed of light. So my guess is that time and the light we're seeing from the past is from different gravitational regions etc.

So is the 15 times or the discrepancy based on "our" perception of time?
 

doctahwhodat

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I love this stuff but am no scientist.

Time is relative. So is the speed of light. So my guess is that time and the light we're seeing from the past is from different gravitational regions etc.

So is the 15 times or the discrepancy based on "our" perception of time?

Your post just made me think of something else. Light speed, or the speed specifically of the light from a specific object can actually be slowed by gravitity. Example: A black hole not only slows light, but it captures it.

If light gets "curved" in it's path by the gravity of a super massive object, like Black Hole or Neutron star, wouldn't it affect our perspective of both 1.) from what direction that object appears to come from, and 2.) the object's distance?

Am I still breaking science?
 

IllegalContact

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I gave up on science after learning that a toilet is too small for the coriolis effect to matter

weed is tight, however
 

ForThoseAboutToRock

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Your post just made me think of something else. Light speed, or the speed specifically of the light from a specific object can actually be slowed by gravitity. Example: A black hole not only slows light, but it captures it.

If light gets "curved" in it's path by the gravity of a super massive object, like Black Hole or Neutron star, wouldn't it affect our perspective of both 1.) from what direction that object appears to come from, and 2.) the object's distance?

Am I still breaking science?

You're forgetting the "relativity" part of general relativity. The value of the speed of light doesn't change in space that is very close to a black hole. The black hole warps the space through which the light itself is traveling, lengthening the journey a photon takes as it travels from its source to your detector (hence the relativity part), but that photon remains at constant velocity the entire time.

Likewise, light cannot escape from within the event horizon of a black hole not because it is slowed down, but because the black hole warps spacetime so much that there is no meaningful way of actually going "out" - this is depicted reasonably well by the funnel shape here: What is a black hole? Searching for what can't be seen
 

ForThoseAboutToRock

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I love this stuff but am no scientist.

Time is relative. So is the speed of light. So my guess is that time and the light we're seeing from the past is from different gravitational regions etc.

So is the 15 times or the discrepancy based on "our" perception of time?

Yeah the observable universe is a pretty mind-bending topic to think about, and I don't think the words used are all that helpful to us non-cosmologists / astrophysicists, as the vocabulary can overlap.

So here's my understanding of what we're talking about, when we say "the diameter of the observable universe centered on earth is 93 bn light years".

1. The big bang occurs everywhere, both inside of our "observable universe" and outside of it - not at a single point. We have 2 things to think about from this moment - a) space itself - the universe - starts expanding; and b) space is so densely packed and hot that it is a hydrogen plasma that is not transparent to light.

2. The universe expands on a continual basis for its entire existence. The early universe expanded and cooled enough after ~390,000 years for hydrogen atoms to form (electrons can pair with protons) - creating transparent hydrogen gas. This moment is called "recombination" - and finally light can travel without being scattered by the opaque plasma of the early universe.

3. Those photons liberated at that moment arrive at earth and we detect / study them. We see them coming at us uniformly from all directions we look. We call this the cosmic microwave background CMB.

4. The photons of the CMB traveled 13.7 billion light years to reach us. Awesome video explaining all of that:
5. So, what is this 93 bn light year diameter? Why isn't the diameter of the observable universe a bit more than 13.7 bn light years? The spherical shell of space that was the source of the photons that traveled 13.7 bn light year to hit us has been expanding away, relative to us. When the light that took 13.7 billion years to get here hit us, it was only 42 Million light years away... the journey just took much longer due to expansion of space. That spherical shell of space that was 42 million light years away when it sent us the CMB currently hitting the early is currently 46 Billion light years away.

Great, detailed explanation of this concept -
 

ForThoseAboutToRock

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So I did not break science?

Well, you asked, "If light gets "curved" in it's path by the gravity of a super massive object, like Black Hole or Neutron star, wouldn't it affect our perspective of both 1.) from what direction that object appears to come from, and 2.) the object's distance?"

And my understanding, not being a professional, is that astronomers can deal with and correct for the effect of massive objects on the light they observe from very distant objects. It's noteworthy that it's not the light that bends around massive objects, but it's the spacetime itself that is distorted by the massive object.

Here is an interesting short article about the Hubble Space Telescope taking an image that features an "Einstein Ring" - the image of a distant galaxy cluster distorted by the mass of a closer galaxy cluster into a ring shape.

I'm not sure the details of the techniques involved, but astronomers are able to get meaningful data about distant objects even if they're distorted by closer ones.
 

doctahwhodat

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Well, you asked, "If light gets "curved" in it's path by the gravity of a super massive object, like Black Hole or Neutron star, wouldn't it affect our perspective of both 1.) from what direction that object appears to come from, and 2.) the object's distance?"

And my understanding, not being a professional, is that astronomers can deal with and correct for the effect of massive objects on the light they observe from very distant objects. It's noteworthy that it's not the light that bends around massive objects, but it's the spacetime itself that is distorted by the massive object
Here is an interesting short article about the Hubble Space Telescope taking an image that features an "Einstein Ring" - the image of a distant galaxy cluster distorted by the mass of a closer galaxy cluster into a ring shape.

I'm not sure the details of the techniques involved, but astronomers are able to get meaningful data about distant objects even if they're distorted by closer ones.


Very interesting read. Thank You.

>> " "In this image, the light from a background galaxy is diverted and distorted around the massive intervening cluster and forced to travel along many different light paths toward Earth, making it seem as though the galaxy is in several places at once."

This is interesting to me in the sense that I have always wondered if due to this very kind of phenomena if the universe actually looks "busier and more full of clusters and galaxies" than it really is. In other words it says in the article that this distant galaxy appears to be multiple galaxies. In this particular case due to the Einstein Ring they know it is the same galaxy.

But it would also be possible with all the endless numbers of Black Holes out there that all kinds of Galaxies light arrives to earth from many different seeming origin points in terms of location. Which could mean we see the same galaxy of even distant cluster of galaxies more than once in the Cosmos
 

Tony2046

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I've been wondering if there was more than one "big bang" or whatever. A lot of space for things to happen when infinity is in the equation. Could those overlap?
 

ViperGTS

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We will never understand the universe at least not us. If we could it would most likely be so incredible that any sci-fi novel or movie ever made would be mundane by comparison.
 

ForThoseAboutToRock

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I've been wondering if there was more than one "big bang" or whatever. A lot of space for things to happen when infinity is in the equation. Could those overlap?

Definitely an awesome question. Is there some kind of long cycle of birth / death / rebirth for the entire cosmos? Or, will we ever figure out a means of confirming whether our universe is one among many, or is that kind of information physically not possible to obtain? Right now, we've not got a solid handle on what Dark Energy and Dark Matter are - and those two things account for 68% and 27%, respectively, of the composition of the universe... so we've definitely got quite a ways to go before we can confidently connect all of the dots out there.
 

Tony2046

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Definitely an awesome question. Is there some kind of long cycle of birth / death / rebirth for the entire cosmos? Or, will we ever figure out a means of confirming whether our universe is one among many, or is that kind of information physically not possible to obtain? Right now, we've not got a solid handle on what Dark Energy and Dark Matter are - and those two things account for 68% and 27%, respectively, of the composition of the universe... so we've definitely got quite a ways to go before we can confidently connect all of the dots out there.

Eh... We're just living in a bag of marbles.

 

PatsFanInVa

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So on some questions above....

1) One of the possibilities, using just the one universe, used to be a "big crunch" followed by another "big bang"
2) Inflation works (space itself expanding faster than light.)
3) But that said, early on I believe there weren't no light. Something about everything just being super high energy soup early on, and it took a while for light to be visible in the soup or somesuch. So I am sure this has nothing to do with the physics, but [tree-falling-in-the-forest joke here.]
 

Nikolai

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OK, so the observable universe is 95 Billion Light Years in diameter. Which at first defies logic since the universe is only 15.5 Billion years old. So even located at the center as we are, it would take nearly three times the life span of the Universe's age for the outermost light to have reached earth, so something is amiss.

Scientific minds have explained the explanation to me which I accept. That explanation is that space itseld expands faster than the speed of light or at least it did at one point.

This means one very interesting thing. Does this means that it is possible for "something" to travel faster than the speed of light? (which of course we have always been told no)

Well, the answer seems to possibly be "maybe". If you could hijack space time then somehow "locate" yourself or your craft within a bubble inside space time and move the bubble faster than light, you would not be violating Einstein's law.

I am not a scientist and I am not well versed in this topic. However, there are now many articles about this on line.

THis however, is not my point.

My point is an observation I had this morning. They have "mapped" the observable universe. It is in fact like a massive sphere with earth essentially at the very center and the limit we can see is roughly 45 Billion light years in all directions.

Since everything we look at in space both deep and near is looking into the past, it appeared to me that this is not really a map at all. It is rather a representation of the universe appears to look like from earth at this present time. And it is guaranteed that it is entirely inaccurate. In other words something 1 billion light years away, we are seeing it as it was 1 billion years ago. Not only is that true for every object, but since it is so many galaxies and clusters, and so many varying massive distances and hence time drifts that the whole map is more like a wobble of truth.

End on this example... "The Bootes Void" is a truly enormous empty region of space that is so large with nothing in it that scientists consider it eery. Well since we are seeing what it looked like so very long ago, it is likely that void no longer even exists.

So Doctahwhodat has broken science.. mic drop

"Forced to home for Covid Compliance.. Doctahwhodat spends his time breaking science"

When it comes to the Bootes Void in particular, one of the more eerie theories I've heard is the remote possibility of a Type 5 civilization (possibly AI) building Dyson Spheres around galaxies and consuming them for energy. Even if that wasn't true, there are other possibly troubling thoughts about it. The fact that what we observe is so far away means that it may be difficult for us to determine if the void has expanded to the point that it could threaten our galaxy, and what that timeline could look like.

Hey, if aliens are going to consume our galaxy to charge their iPads, there's not much we can do about it...so go out and start knocking things off your bucket list...socially distanced of course :ninja:
 

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