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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Joey007, Feb 17, 2020.

  1. DW Toys

    DW Toys In the Starting Line-Up

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    You are most correct Cousin.

    You still have one guy they could have on the cheap who would be a starter day one to take the Dorsett role is Rishard Higgins......not a peep.

    You have Demarcus Robinson who right now is better than Byrd, Neal and Meyers. I am not buying this "we did what was best for the Team" line.

    Knowing how we Draft WRs, are you ready to see the Patriots dip into the Draft for a pick or picks that will take at least going into year two to get them adjusted to the Pats (Josh) complicated offense, or do you want a guy who is Pro Ready and has at least that "big stage" step conquered?

    Do you trust the Pats and Monti Ossenfort, their College Scouting director to make some choices he has not proven he can make? Hitting on kids who were just weened to perform like Pro's day one is a gamble.

    Did you know that the success rate of most NFL Teams by average is 17%-19% per Draft class in a fair 36 month R.O.I. term? These are chosen players in the Draft that are either starters, quality back-ups, specialists or of pro-bowl electees. Most are cut/released via underwhelming talent, injury, personal problem issues or just the Drafting Team tried to fit a square peg in a round hole. (actually Teams with bad records keep the most Draft picks because they need to fill holes)

    Did you know that 31% of every NFL Team roster is comprised of free agents and street pick-ups? Cousins, these 31% are misses by scouting departments. Some are from the pool of players from the paragraph above.

    So we have to count upon a guy that lists his "binkies" and backs up this with B.S. to insist we Draft so-and-so? We all have binkies and we might have better than a 17%-19% Draft success in our home grown mocks.

    I know how I am voting

    Even WR Corey Coleman just got resigned.

    As far as TE, we have tinkled down our leg to come up with one. Ebron...Nyet, Eifert...nope, Olsen ...uh,uh. Let's see,...... In Bill we trust?

    Look I am not blaming this death spiral of quality playmakers on BB. He signs off on them sure, but has to rely on his henchmen. I am talking about these guys who make huge $ and do sniff up some third-stringer with fingers crossed with quantity moves, instead in quality.

    Yes CAP is a problem but you can certainly free up some.

    BB is better at making trades to pick up established talent. We can all name 10-20.
    Drafting is not our forte.

    DW Toys
     
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  2. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    cannon
     
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  3. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Pro Bowl Player

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    Agree but that may not be enough
     
  4. Kenneth Sims

    Kenneth Sims PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Per overthecap.com, the Patriots are $708,585 with all reported deals on the (Shilique Calhoun being the latest). They have 67 players under contract with only the 51 highest cap numbers counting against the cap.

    Free agency has pretty much dried up (Derek Wolfe speculation still is out there). They will probably have to clear an additional $9 million or so to cover the draft class, players 52-55, practice squad and injured players plus a reserve for other necessities.

    There really aren’t any additional cuts to be made. Thus, to gain the cap space they’ll need, to convert salary (counts current year) into bonuses (spread evenly over the remaining years on the contract) and, most likely, extend some contracts to add years over which the bonus money is amortized and reduce the 2020 charge.

    In my opinion, the best way to get the required space is to extend the contracts of their best offensive player (Joe Thuney) and best defensive player (Gilmore) even if They have to be a little more generous than They would like overall to get it done. A Thuney extension could be structured in a way to clear $10 million just by itself.

    When you put things on a credit card, it’s always good if what you’re buying is still useful until the balance is paid.
     
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  5. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    enough for what?

    I think that extending, trading or sitting Cannon can produce enough cap money to into the draft.
     
  6. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Pro Bowl Player

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    Veteran trades at WR TE and possibly linebacker
     
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  7. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Pro Bowl Player

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    We don’t have enough cap to sign Demarcus Robinson at the moment even if we offered him a clean shot at a top position.
     
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  8. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This sounds good, but it is not all unusual to have some money differed into years where you expect the player to be gone. For example, we are dealing with $13.5M of deferred Brady. I think that it was reasonable to defer the money. For me, the issue is the deferring of compensation, not whether the player is still playing when all the compensation is recognized in the cap.

    A more recent example is McCourty. McCourty's 2020 cap hit was $5.4M. Obviously, McCourty will not be playing when all the deferred 2020 compensation is recognized in the cap.

    So, for me, the question is NOT how much dead money are we carrying. For me, the question is how much deferred money are we carrying. If we have a player has a $20M cap, it make a huge difference whether than $20M is all current salary or whether the money includes $10M of deferred money. All the time, posters will say this player (whoever he is) is "not worth" his $20M cap hit. These two situations are very different. In the first, the $20M is new money. His contract calls for $20M for 2020 services. In the second, we are paying the player $10M for 2020 services. The open question is different. In the first, presuming we can find a reasonable replacement, we should considering cutting or treading the player if he isn't worth $20M. In the seance case, the question is whether he is worth $10M of new money.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020 at 1:43 PM
  9. LT85

    LT85 Practice Squad Player

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    You're right. He also had/have a reputation for being "difficult" and a me-player.

    Gilmore still has 3-4 good years. All I'm saying is if the right team in the right situation offers the right deal, then I'm open to trading him. We've seen teams in win now mode be willing to offer crazy deals. And a player like Gilmore is not available that often.
     
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  10. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So, your are thinking of 2 1sts and 2 2nds?
     
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  11. Hammer of Thor

    Hammer of Thor PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wouldn’t you be significantly hurting one position to help out another? I guess the question is who would fit best in their long term plans. But Gilmore is the top CB in the NFL, is locked up for another couple of years at reasonable rates for his play, and will easily fit into the 2021 salary cap. I mean sure, it’s possible, but why unless there’s a knock you over offer?
     
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  12. LT85

    LT85 Practice Squad Player

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    Yes, if you throw in a very good special teams player, then I'd be okay with that :)
     
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  13. scott99

    scott99 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Well, I read somewhere, that in 2021, the Pats will have 100 mill in cap space (as well as 13 draft choices). So 2020 may be rough, but we should have the ammo next year for a quick rebuild. REALLY need to have Belichick have his BEST draft since 2012 when he reloaded on defense with Jones and Hightower, 2 years later we won the SB. IF he can just do the equivalent on the other side of the ball, and come up with some weapons on offense (GREAT WR draft this year). If he could come out of the draft with one burner WR and a Pass catching TE, the offense may not be too bad in 2020.I really want him to double up on WR and TE in the 2020 draft. But it's Belichick's draft, so probably won't happen, but ya never know.

    Then in 2021, loud up on both sides of the ball.
     
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  14. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Pro Bowl Player

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    Because that’s our strongest position and if you trade Gilmore you are still pretty strong.
    Think like BB do you want to be the strongest at dback.
    Yet below average talent and depth at linebacker Tight end or receiver?
     
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  15. Hammer of Thor

    Hammer of Thor PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That’s right. Currently the Pats have 100m under contract for 2021. That excludes Thuney, Hightower, JMac, Andrews, and JC Jackson whose contracts are all up. And it excludes this year’s draft picks who will be under contract next year. Jackson is a RFA and will likely be tendered at the 1st round level at this pace.

    Even if the Pats signed all of those players and accounted for the 2020 draft, that wouldn’t bring the team over $150m - $175m in 2021 cap commitments. Best estimate for 2021 cap is $225m at the moment, so that’s $50m - $75m in additional maneuverability that they have.
     
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  16. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Pro Bowl Player

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    Also keep in mind his value will never be higher then this moment also he is trending to 30
     
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  17. scott99

    scott99 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Honestly Chris, he doesn't seem to care about the WR and TE positions as far as top level talent. Unless the draft proves otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see either drafted until round 4 or later.
     
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  18. Hammer of Thor

    Hammer of Thor PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    After Gilmore it’s JMac who will retire sooner than later. Then you’re left with JC, Jones (a slot guy) and Williams (an unknown). That depth you’re seeing may wind up being average at best if you get rid of the top guy. I’m skeptical at this point.
     
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  19. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Pro Bowl Player

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    One thing this team has been able to do is develop defensive backs though.
    I could be totally wrong but I will not be shocked to see a Gilmore
    Trade during or before the first day of the draft.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020 at 2:35 PM
  20. borisman

    borisman Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    IF BB decides to move both Gilmore and JE11 then a good place to send both would be Minnesota. They have a good team but could really use both players. They have draft capital as well.
    I'm not saying we should trade them but the subject of both players being moved has come up on this board.
     
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