Mock ratings from The Huddle

[bosfan]

http://www.thehuddlereport.com has a link on their main page "Top 100/Mock Grades" that shows some interesting results. Since Rick Gosselin has such a good track record I plan to keep an eye on him at: http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/nwsltr/sports/fromthe50/stories/022206dnspogosselincol.4c26d8a8.html

 

[AzPatsFan]

I respect RG's opinion...

I think its significant tha tRich Gosselin has singled out many Lawson.

Manny Lawson has been the guy I wanted the patriots to draft since midseason. Willie's position is key to making the 3-4 go. And Willie is not ageless.

It is tough to find both apassrusher who also can stop the weakside or strongside run and that's Willies' job. It tales a year or three to learn that position so draft them now to play in 07...

 

[DaBruinz]

AZPatsfan -
Unfortunately for you, BB disagrees on what position is the key to making the 3-4 successful. According to BB, and the facts, having a successful NT is the key to the 3-4.

If you look at the Pats from 2002 through 2005, when they were HOT, its because the NT was doing his job and tying up the middle. When they weren't (much of 2002 and the beginning of 2005) then the team got run over.

Willie's position is important, but its not the lynchpin of the 3-4 defense.

 

[Boston Tim]

3-4

The ILB positions are more critical to fill with quality players than the NT. The reason why the defense improved mid-season in 2005 was due to Bruschi's return and Vrabel's move inside.

The defensive difficulties in 2002 had little to do with the 3-4, since we were playing more 4-3 at that time. Steve Martin was a poor DT for us, but it was Bruschi's injury and missed games that accounted for our dropoff in defensive ability. Ted Johnson just couldn't play MLB effectively (though he was still a good ILB.)

 

[holyredeemer]

Olb help

AZPatsfan -
"Unfortunately for you, BB disagrees on what position is the key to making the 3-4 successful. According to BB, and the facts, having a successful NT is the key to the 3-4."


Well, lucky for all of us, BB has the NT he believes is so important. So we just might get one or two of these OLBs that I agree, are extremely important to the success of this def. Someone goes down, who's steppin in for us? TBC? C'mon now, we need more depth.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

A reminder regarding "key" positions, BB first teaches "team defense" with everyone "playing their role." The NT can be a brick wall, but ILBs playing poorly opens up the middle just as badly as the NT playing poorly. For example; in the first half of the KC game, Seymour was playing poorly while Colvin was playing lights out drawing double teams - KC ran pretty well at the left side.

That said, one of the points I think many here are trying to make is the need to think about what it takes to develop a player. A RB can be explosive as a rookie, while a DL usually needs a couple years to develop into a two gap player. WRs start hitting their stride in their third year, while the average RB career is three years. Both Brady and Peyton Manning are examples of QBs who needed a year to develop - Rothlesberger, for all his success, didn't really develop until his second year either.

Consider how long Bruschi was in the league before he really was able to step up and be a dominating LB. You also have to think about the learning curves for each position given the system, for example; Gay and Hobbs both were able to step in an play well mid-way through their rookie campaigns; Koppen stepped in and started nearly right away, as did Mankins and Kaczur; Warren was solid his second year and starting to dominate in his third year; Lofa Tatupu was pretty good as a rookie, while BB has tried to bring in LBs from FA with 3-4 years experience to develop in his system; BB has also tried to keep veteran DBs around to help out talented rookies.

Drafting a RB in the first round is spending top dollar on a player who, statistically, may be out of the league after three seasons. Drafting a DL first round means you get a situational contributor the first year and a solid player by year two if Wilfork and Warren are any example. If we wanted to draft a DE to convert into an OLB we can expect a slower learning curve, unless they played some LB in college and/or high school. Even then, they need to work hard with the trainer to get strong enough to take on 300+ lb O-linemen and have a steep learning curve with BB's defense.

At this point in the draft season I like Manny Lawson as a good value at #21, but I'd settle for TEs Davis or Pope. I'll have others as we go along.

 

[DaBruinz]

The ILB positions are more critical to fill with quality players than the NT. The reason why the defense improved mid-season in 2005 was due to Bruschi's return and Vrabel's move inside.

The defensive difficulties in 2002 had little to do with the 3-4, since we were playing more 4-3 at that time. Steve Martin was a poor DT for us, but it was Bruschi's injury and missed games that accounted for our dropoff in defensive ability. Ted Johnson just couldn't play MLB effectively (though he was still a good ILB.)

BostonTim -
No offense, but you are wrong. And that is according to Bill Belichick in Patriot Reign.

The reason we were playing the 4-3 in 2002 was because Steve Martin was such a failure as a NT. The Patriots didn't have the personnel to run the 4-3 in their linebacking corps. Its why the Patriots let Martin go in November and used Seymour as a NT. Its also why BB made it a POINT to get Ted Washington to play the NT in 2003 and then in 2004 with Wilfork and Traylor.

As for your statements about the LBs, you are correct that Ted Johnson wasn't a very good MLB but a good ILB (nice to see someone understanding the difference). However, it was an over-all lack of side-line to sideline speed in the LBs and the safeties that hurt as well. But the primary failure was in the NT position. These are all items that are out there for public consumption in Patriot Reign.

Now, while I agree with Box in his assessment about BB and team defense, the 3-4 revolves around play of the D-line and specifically the NT. BostonTim, everyone loves to point to Bruschi returning as the pivotal moment but reality is that it over-shadowed other things that were going on at the time. Like Vrabel moving inside, which he did the game prior to Bruschi's return. Like Seymour returning. And lastly, Wilfork changing his technique to line up off the ball slightly so he has a better view of the play developing. ALL of those things happened right around the same time and it was that conglomeration of events that led to the improvement of the defense in 2005.

 

[DaBruinz]

AZPatsfan -
"Unfortunately for you, BB disagrees on what position is the key to making the 3-4 successful. According to BB, and the facts, having a successful NT is the key to the 3-4."


Well, lucky for all of us, BB has the NT he believes is so important. So we just might get one or two of these OLBs that I agree, are extremely important to the success of this def. Someone goes down, who's steppin in for us? TBC? C'mon now, we need more depth.

Holyredeemer - Please go back and read my post again and show me where I said that the Patriots didn't need to address the position of LB in the draft?

OK, now that you have done that and seen that I said NO SUCH THING, what is your point?

Fact is that the Patriots have McGinest, Vrabel, Bruschi, Colvin as their starting LBs. The Patriots also have Izzo, Davis, Claridge, C. Brown, TBC, and Beisel. I have not been impressed with Izzo or TBC for the last 2 years. Also, C. Brown really didn't impress me either. Claridge is an unknown, but he's got a year under his belt of reviewing tape and working int he Pats strength and conditioning program. He's a kid that people think can be a better Ted Johnson.

Do I think that the Pats will draft an OLB? Yes. I do. In fact, when many people were saying the Pats needed an ILB, I was saying OLB might be a better possibility. Could it be Manny Lawson? Yep. Could it be Kamerion Wimbley? Yep. Could it be Mathias Kiwanuka? Yep. OLB is a need and only the Patriots know who they want and where they want to draft that person.

 

[jczxohn1]

Holyredeemer - Please go back and read my post again and show me where I said that the Patriots didn't need to address the position of LB in the draft?

OK, now that you have done that and seen that I said NO SUCH THING, what is your point?

Fact is that the Patriots have McGinest, Vrabel, Bruschi, Colvin as their starting LBs. The Patriots also have Izzo, Davis, Claridge, C. Brown, TBC, and Beisel. I have not been impressed with Izzo or TBC for the last 2 years. Also, C. Brown really didn't impress me either. Claridge is an unknown, but he's got a year under his belt of reviewing tape and working int he Pats strength and conditioning program. He's a kid that people think can be a better Ted Johnson.

Do I think that the Pats will draft an OLB? Yes. I do. In fact, when many people were saying the Pats needed an ILB, I was saying OLB might be a better possibility. Could it be Manny Lawson? Yep. Could it be Kamerion Wimbley? Yep. Could it be Mathias Kiwanuka? Yep. OLB is a need and only the Patriots know who they want and where they want to draft that person.

Just for the record, Claridge, by all reports was not at the Pats facility for the entire 2005 season.

 

[dryheat44]

Let's clear one thing up. I don't think the issue is which position in more important in the 3-4, the issue is that good NTs are much more hard to find than good ILBs, and therefore are coveted more. Each draft might yield one or two good NT, and one or two more prospects. Wheras ILBs are more plentiful AND the skills can be taught. OLB prospects are fairly common. There are more and more each year coming out, physical freaks who go 235-255 and can run 4.6 or better.

 

[DarrylS]

Just for the record, Claridge, by all reports was not at the Pats facility for the entire 2005 season.

I was on a flight with his cousin who lives with him from Las Vegas last October, she told me he is working out in Las Vegas rehabbing from his injury and goes back and forth to Foxboro to check his progress. She told me he would be returning back to this area full time for off season workouts.

 

[DaBruinz]

Just for the record, Claridge, by all reports was not at the Pats facility for the entire 2005 season.

What reports? Do you have any of them to back this up?

 

[jczxohn1]

I was on a flight with his cousin who lives with him from Las Vegas last October, she told me he is working out in Las Vegas rehabbing from his injury and goes back and forth to Foxboro to check his progress. She told me he would be returning back to this area full time for off season workouts.

Good news. I had read different comments on this site at times, glad he'll be for the off-season.

 

[jczxohn1]

What reports? Do you have any of them to back this up?

According to the above GJ quote, Claridge spent most of the season rehabbing at home in Vegas, (this was reported before). I suppose he could have been reviewing game tape on computer like Tedy does, but I wouldn't characterize him as "participating in the Patriots strength and conditioning program". Also, IMO, it will be 3 yrs in the system before any late round rookie approaches the level of Ted Johnson.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Y'all are too simplistic...

AZPatsfan -
"Unfortunately for you, BB disagrees on what position is the key to making the 3-4 successful. According to BB, and the facts, having a successful NT is the key to the 3-4."


Well, lucky for all of us, BB has the NT he believes is so important. So we just might get one or two of these OLBs that I agree, are extremely important to the success of this def. Someone goes down, who's steppin in for us? TBC? C'mon now, we need more depth.

If you can't stop the run you can't win; if you can't stop the pass you can't win. Pass rush comes from the OLB/DEs in the 3-4 and they ALSO need to be big to stop the wide run too..

BB/SP have had the OLB/DEs they need. When they didn't, they signed a FA to get their third starter quality guy; and before that they signed their second starter quality guy as a FA. For that matter they also signed another starter quality guy as a FA. Duh...

Do the names Phifer, Vrabel and Colvin, ring a bell with y'all? Remind me of all the high priced FAs they signed? Add washington, Starks and Dillon to those three and you have the universe, and fully 50% were OLB/DEs, whereas one out of six was a NT. They signed one NT, Mt. Washington and then let him go when he wanted too much dough.

Believe the actions, don't pay attention to the rhetoric, and you'll understand BB/SP much better..

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I can not imagine any team having any success in the 3-4 without a solid NT. And while the NT is one of 11 bricks in the wall, scheming for the NT is the first place oppsing offenses start when designing plays to run against the 3-4 and that's run or pass.

 

[Sorboni]

The player that got away?

Bobby Carpenter, OLB chosen by Dallas in the First Round, Pick 18: Is he the player that got away? :enranged:

 

[PATSNUTme]

Bobby Carpenter, OLB chosen by Dallas in the First Round, Pick 18: Is he the player that got away? :enranged:

I believe that if he was there at #21, the Patriots would have taken him.

It was rumored that the day before the draft that Dallas was going to take him if he was there at #18 and there was talk that the Patriots were trying to move up to #17. I don't know how hard or what the asking price was. It didn't work and I'm happy that we took Maroney at #21.

 

[PATSNUTme]

2001 re-mock

Hey, look at that 2001 Re-Mock on the Huddle Report site. Interesting, very interesting. :rocker: