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Mahomes will never be better than Brady

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Oct 17th

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amfootball

In the Starting Line-Up
I don't agree with a lot of people here that Mahomes needs to win 8 championships to surpass Brady like that's the only way he can do it. And I don't agree that this Super Bowl result means the door is shut.

I've always said - and I know others here have also said - I'm open to discussing someone else being the GOAT over Brady even if that guy didn't win as many championships.

But here's what happens: Packers/Colts/Saints fans start making an argument like "If Peyton/Aaron/Luck/Brees wins 6 MVP awards and 5 Super Bowls with this inferior franchise, he'll be the GOAT!" and then use that theoretical argument to diminish Super Bowls as a team stat and not an invididual one. None of these QBs actually win anything. They fail in the biggest moments time after time. Their individual stats are boosted by high paid skill players that don't help them win.

In another thread, I just posted a ridiculous list of quarterbacks that Brady has beaten in the postseason; his career is so dominant it's really hard to find a comparison in the expansion era. Outside of Peyton Manning, he is 17-0 against other elite (or once elite) QBs: Mahomes, Rodgers, Warner, Wilson, Brees, Luck, Roethlisberger, Ryan, Rivers, McNair, Gannon, McNabb. I mean, how nuts is that? Sure, he has sometimes had the better roster. Sometimes the better coaching. Sometime more luck. But certainly not always and not to the degree that hindsight changes the narrative.

So here's my convoluted point: most accomplished, greatest, and best are one in the same. And that's what really drives me nuts about these hot takes from the media. Brady is the most accomplished because he has been the best, almost always. And if Rodgers, Brees, Manning, etc. had really been the best, they would have a lot more accomplishments. But they weren't. Not even close.

So can Mahomes reach or surpass Brady? Sure he can. It isn't about counting numbers like "how many championships and MVPs". Sure, those help as an indicator, but it's about being the best and dominating, beating all of your contemporaries for many years and being the clear cut best quarterback, and playing your best year after year through all the adversity, down years, disappointments, and capitlizing when you can, over and over.

If Mahomes can do that and be the very best quarterback in the league and adapt to all kinds of different circumstances, then fifteen years from now, maybe he doesn't have eight championships but he has a lot of them and a lot of legacy moments, then I'm sure open to discussing it. But from a Patriots/Brady fan standpoint, we've seen a lot of these beginnings before and all the hype and theoreticals and counting trophies in advance, and frankly no one at all has done anything to even put them in the same class as Brady (or a bunch of other all-time great QBs in league history.)
I agree with this in large part but he has 2 losses to Brady already. 2 rings taken off his finger and put on Brady. His 2 worst games of his career are his SB games. I think those are the things you are getting at which I agree with. He does not have to win 8 but after 3 seasons the chasm between him and Brady is enormous.
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
Mahomes definitely better than Rodgers & Brees. Not willing to put him above Manning at this stage. Manning was really ****ing good.
Both Rodgers AND Brees are >> Fivehead, and Kermit obviously needs to prove over time that he's > Any of those 3.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Disputed Winner - Week 2 Predict the Score Contest
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This is not how I remember Peyton's career. He was always pulling off crazy comebacks, long before the Denver era. Certainly more than Aaron Rodgers. He was insanely good, but a carbon copy of Brady? I don't think we ever saw that. Welker got a million concussions in Denver and that's a direct result of one of the main differences between the two QBs. Manning never shied away from putting his receiver's body on the line by throwing it into a place where they'll definitely get popped. The only real difference we saw in Manning when he switched teams was an adaptation to his loss of arm strength, but it's not like he wasn't playing smart football before that.

And for what small amount it's worth, no QB since Peyton Manning has made me more nervous as a fan rooting against him than Mahomes.
That doesn't really work out when you look at the history overall. 2006 his one big game was aided by bad calls and the Patriots having the flu. 2015 that defense carried him. The one and done's vs SD twice and the Jets were awful. Mahomes to his point has never done that. The Baltimore one and done isn't completely his fault but that pick was killer. 2013 against the Patriots they had everything going for him. If he had choked that away it would have been another gagger. Seattle isn't all on him either. Those receivers turtled. 2014 against Indy getting smoked like that? A team the Pats put 45 on. They all have their failures but 14-13 and really your defense won you at least a third of those.

View attachment 30387
Manning? Really? Nah I can't put him with Brady & Montana. Guy never even put a team on his back to win a SB. '06 he rode his defense (Manning had 3 TD and 7 INTs those playoffs) and then in '15 the Broncos defense dragged his corpse to a SB win. He also had 2 SBs in between where he up-chucked all over himself. Threw a game sealing pick against the Saints and then just got ass-blasted by the Seahawks. Also 9 one-and-done's in the playoffs. Brady still only has 3 and the 3rd one just happened last year.

I mean if you think so it's your opinion, I just can't do it. Pats beating the **** out of him in the playoffs in those early years always sticks with me because he had to go get the rules changed and then he never even really won one, just was there for the ride of a good defense and dude's lucky Bryan Stork was tipping the snap count and the Pats OL was patchworked and Ghost missed an XP or that would have been Brady getting another one.

In retrospect, I think Manning was as talented and smart as Brady but Brady had the psychology (and testicles) of an all-time great while Manning did not. In terms of Xs and Os, reading coverages, running various systems, accuracy, mechanics, etc., both can do anything the other can.

Manning really wanted to beat teams before the game started and wanted it to be smooth and easy. When things didn’t go his way and the pressure of losing in the playoffs became stronger, he didn’t know how to handle it; you could see him become risk averse and hesitant with his passes. When he needed to step up and make superstar plays, he became conservative and ordinary. Contrarily, how many times have we seen Brady rallying the troops on the sidelines and digging deeper? It’s like Brady actually thrives under the biggest challenges against the toughest opponents on the biggest stage. And when it’s do-or-die time, he’s so locked in almost like time slows down. It’s otherworldly and also undeniable.

Brady throws those ridiculous needle threaders in overtime in playoff games. He isn’t afraid of being intercepted or of losing. If you watch a lot of the late drives in Super Bowls or the AFCCG in Kansas City, there are so many risky passes he hits, willing to throw to covered receivers by forcing it in there. Re-watch the last drive of SB38...insane tiny window passes to Brown and Branch who aren’t even open. He goes at Earl Thomas and looks him off in SB49; he goes after Mathieu in SB55; he picks on Polamalu in 2004. Three safeties in DPOY conversation. He beats an elite Jacksonville defense in 2017 with a giant gash on his hand, Gronk concussed, and Amendola as his best receiver. He trash talks and challenges defenders. He believes there is absolutely no chance he’ll fail. Simply put, he’s a bad mother****er and assassin when he should be most vulnerable and cautious.

Now many of those “holy crap!” moments for Manning in the postseason? Any? Seen him, trailing by four on 4th and elimination, rocket a fifteen yard pass between two defenders into a tiny window? I haven’t seen it once. Not even an attempt.

Brady just has supreme confidence in himself and his teammates. No quarterback has ever been as fearless as Brady, and that’s what separates him. It became somewhat normalized to us, but these other rival QBs (Manning, Rodgers, Brees) don’t have it.

And while you can’t ”prove” this, we all know that stats don’t explain his outlier dominance, so it has to be an intangible, and his success is now so far ahead of the curve that believing there is no “special intangible” to his sucess is a bigger stretch than believing there is one.
 
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PatsFanInVa

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I get why it's a thread, people are talking about it. What I want to know is WHY people are talking about it. Mahomes is the QB of his generation... thus far. He's got it all, the field vision, the arm, the escapability/physical gifts, no argument. Tom Brady is the GOAT and it's not close. 7 rings. Closest competition has 4. He has never dropped out of competition except 2008, in a 20 year career. Brady's not the strongest arm in the league and he's not the least-pick-offable. But he's high in both. He's going to own just about every record by a combination of being among the elite in many categories, and having a long career. So much for stats. I only talk about them because they bear out the "it" factor Brady's got, and everybody else has to prove -- because you only know it was there in retrospect. That consistent will to win no matter what, no matter what season, etc. He's been in a good situation to maintain that focus, and when it came to it, he left NE when it was the only way to maintain that focus. My hat's off to him, and I will take the worst bum off the street in a Patriots hat over him any day for that one day. Sorry, that's being a fan. All that said, I sure miss seeing what we just saw when the QB was in the right uni. :D

But Mahomes? I mean, if you say so, we'll stick him in the conversation after a measly 1 ring.

He just had his Ricky Proehl "Tonight a Dynasty is Born" moment. If you want to crown his ass crown his ass, but TFB gets to say when.
 

PatsFanInVa

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In retrospect, I think Manning was as talented and smart as Brady but Brady had the psychology (and testicles) of an all-time great while Manning did not. In terms of Xs and Os, reading coverages, running various systems, accuracy, mechanics, etc., both can do anything the other can.

Manning really wanted to beat teams before the game started and wanted it to be smooth and easy. When things didn’t go his way and the pressure of losing in the playoffs became stronger, he didn’t know how to handle it; you could see him become risk averse and hesitant with his passes. When he needed to step up and make superstar plays, he became conservative and ordinary. Contrarily, how many times have we seen Brady rallying the troops on the sidelines and digging deeper? It’s like Brady actually thrives under the biggest challenges against the toughest opponents on the biggest stage. And when it’s do-or-die time, he’s so locked in almost like time slows down. It’s otherworldly and also undeniable.

Brady throws those ridiculous needle threaders in overtime in playoff games. He isn’t afraid of being intercepted or of losing. If you watch a lot of the late drives in Super Bowls or the AFCCG in Kansas City, there are so many risky passes he hits, willing to throw to covered receivers by forcing it in there. Re-watch the last drive of SB38...insane tiny window passes to Brown and Branch who aren’t even open. He goes at Earl Thomas and looks him off in SB49; he goes after Mathieu in SB55; he picks on Polamalu in 2004. Three safeties in DPOY conversation. He beats an elite Jacksonville defense in 2017 with a giant gash on his hand, Gronk concussed, and Amendola as his best receiver. He trash talks and challenges defenders. He believes there is absolutely no chance he’ll fail. Simply put, he’s a bad mother****er and assassin when he should be most vulnerable and cautious.

Now many of those “holy crap!” moments for Manning in the postseason? Any? Seen him, trailing by four on 4th and elimination, rocket a fifteen yard pass between two defenders into a tiny window? I haven’t seen it once. Not even an attempt.

Brady just has supreme confidence in himself and his teammates. No quarterback has ever been as fearless as Brady, and that’s what separates him. It became somewhat normalized to us, but these other rival QBs (Manning, Rodgers, Brees) don’t have it.

And while you can’t ”prove” this, we all know that stats don’t explain his outlier dominance, so it has to be an intangible, and his success is now so far ahead of the curve that believing there is no “special intangible” to his sucess is a bigger stretch than believing there is one.
I like this, and I think you're right. Peyton wanted Sun Tzu to be right, 100%, and have the battle won in the preparation. Welp, sometimes preparation gets you to a level playing field.... like when the old Colts would play the Pats. Brady eats adrenaline for breakfast, lunch, and dinner... he thrives in the moments, after preparing as thoroughly as any player... but yeah I agree, Brady WANTS to be in there when it's 28-3, he WANTS it to all be in his hands
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
Once Mahomes contract goes to a $45million cap hit we will then see the drop in talent and the chiefs will be part of the pack. He's amazing but it's like the "legion of boom" Seahawks.

Easy to field an extremely talented team when your QB is playing at an elite level on a rookie contract. Once he gets paid you have millions left to work with to field talent around them. In the chiefs case it will be about $40million less than his superbowl season or next year his cap hit is $30million.

That's alot of good players you have to let go. It creates holes in the roster and you are relying on the QB more.

This is the way NFL salary cap creates parity. Patriots we're only able to circumvent it because brady didn't scrounge for every last cent in his contracts and bill chose which positions he wanted to replace via draft and not pay everyone. Some worked chandler jones - flowers, talib-revis-butler-gilmore. Others didn't.
 

Brotherblues

On the Game Day Roster
wonderful slurping sounds here.......just remember to wipe your chins when you're done

It's a thread about Tom Brady in a Patriots forum. You know, the guy who along with BB gave us the greatest 20 years of following a team in the history of sports. If you choose to make this kind of comment on those who are thankful for what he gave us, then... I dunno what to say.
 

IllegalContact

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It's a thread about Tom Brady in a Patriots forum. You know, the guy who along with BB gave us the greatest 20 years of following a team in the history of sports. If you choose to make this kind of comment on those who are thankful for what he gave us, then... I dunno what to say.
Tom Brady is gone.......there is no Tom Brady
 

PatsWickedPissah

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I think he is or even 6'6.
No way is tom that tall. His stick build vs a manly man athletic build like yours truly makes him look taller.
Old photos & I saw them at Smithfield together Drew looked 2" taller than Brady. Drew was listed at 6'5" but he was really 6'6"
Brady is a tall 6'4" but still under 6'5"
Mahomes is 6'1" to 2"
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
Unless Mahomes takes a pay cut he is not going to have half as many rings as brady. He might get to big Ben's level.

But once those cap hits kick in it's going to be hard to put a complete roster around him.
 

Kargetina

On the Game Day Roster
You know how silly it is to think that Mahomes will win 7 or 8 rings?

At the start of the next season and taking into account that Flacco or Big Ben don’t retire, there will be Tom Brady with 7 rings and all the other starting QB’s combined would have...7 rings. Ben 2, Foles, Mahomes, Flacco, Wilson, Rodgers. That’s it.

In the last 25 years, basically in the salary cap era, Brady aside, only 4 QB’s won more than one SB, Elway 2, Peyton 2, Ben 2 and Eli 2. No one else has won 3 let alone 5 let alone 7. It’s damn difficult to win one.

Brady’s career has completely distorted the picture about the difficulty of winning SB’s.

This isn’t the NBA where you have 4 do-overs every round. There’s a reason why Jordan has 6, Kobe 5, Duncan 5, Shaq and Lebron 4, etc. A weaker team can win a game or two but it’s not beating a superior team 4 times out of 7.

In the NFL one bad day means the end of the year. No team has repeated in 16 years.

But Mahomes will win 8. Good luck.
 

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