LoMo poll

[VrabelMayeWin]

Brady had only 1 TD pass against the Eagles and only 2 against the Ravens.

He also had two TDs dropped against the Ravens. With the wind and a strong secondary (Rolle and McAllister had been out), 1 TD that should have been 3 is hardly an indictment of the passing attack.

 

[Ring 6]

I hope that you are feigning ignorance here. The Colts have been the NFL's elite passing offense over the past 5 years. What that proves is that runningbacks can be VERY productive in the framework of an elite passing offense.

2007 is the FIRST year that the Patriots have eclipsed the Colts in offensive categories. Don't try to act like it's suddenly this NEW thing that the Colts have been an elite passing O, AND their RBs also produced elite numbers. The only reason Maroney can't PRODUCE is the result of his own abilities, what he has done on the FIELD, and how much the coaching staff trust in him to carry the load.

The idea that a RB in a great passing O can't produce elite numbers is what is ludicrous. I'm really tired of the excuses, so I'll just dig up the readily available counterexamples to this theory - Marshall Faulk & Rams Greatest show on Turf, Edgerrin James & Peyton Manning's record breaking 49 passing TDs, etc. etc.

It's a very REASONABLE inference to think that the Colts trust Addai more and the Pats don't trust Maroney to carry the load when Addai gets over 200+ carries and Maroney barely sees over 100 carries.

History is irrelevant. We are talking about THIS YEAR. We are talking about the success of the passing games THIS year.
What we are talking about here is THE PLAY CALLING OF THE OFFENSES.


Here, lets put this to rest once and for all:
1) The Patriots have thrown for 640 more yards than the Colts, have averaged a FULL YARD MORE PER PASS ATTEMPT, have thrown 18 more TDs, and are scoring 11 points more per game than the Colts.
---I guess this means that we should run more just like they do huh? And that the decision to run or pass is the same for each team, because the passing games are equal, right? So we only run less than the Colts because we wish we could but dont want to, not because we pass significantly better than them right?
2) Maroney has 118 carries through 12 games. He was out for 3 of those, and sat the entire second half of 2 other blowouts. Thats 8 games he really played or 14.8 carries per game.
Addai has 223 in 11 games or 20.3
THE OVERWHELMING CONFIDENCE THE COLTS HAVE IN ADDAI VS THE PATRIOTS LACK OF TRUST IN MARONEY MAKES THE DIFFERENCE OF 5 RUSHES A GAME. MY GOD, I WISH WE WOULD GIVE MARONEY THE BALL ONE MORE TIME PER QUARTER SO I COULD FEEL LIKE WE TRUST HIM.
3) In addition to that, Kevin Faulk gets 4 rushes a game. Oh my God, we must not trust Maroney if we put one of the best RBs in the passing game in the NFL into our offense which is THE BEST PASS OFFENSE EVER, and cant trust Maroney enough that we have to give 4 of his carries to Faulk.
4) In case you havent noticed, we have blown out most of the teams we have played, and the Colts havent. Perhaps a portion of those missing carries are because when we are way ahead, BB doesn't want to have his top RB get pounded?
5) 2 of the games Maroney missed were against horrible defenses where we ran more than normal (additionally he was lifted due to the rout when we ran a lot against the Bills). Morris had over 40 carries vs the Bengals and Browns. (Now I know you will reach and say we must 'trust' morris more, but that is shot down by the fact that Maroney got more carries when both were healthy)
6) Lets assume that Maroney still only got 80% of the carries Morris got in those 2 games, and lets only give him 30 more for the second halves of those blowouts. Opps, now we are up to those factors accounting for 62 carries, which would bring his total to 180, or 16.4 per game.

Are we really going to say that when we eliminate those factors and Maroney gets a whopping 3.9 fewer carries than Addai, that we dont trust Maroney like the Colts trust Addai is a better explanation than OUR SUCCESS IN THE PASSING GAME CREATES FEWER OPPORTUNITES TO RUN? And the fact that we are way ahead in most games reduces Maroney carries?
Do you think that if the Colts had as many blowout wins as we have had Addai would have a few less carries?

 

[Ring 6]

The best offense in the history of the NFL? Based on what? Points scored? If everything is based on STATS, than are we to believe Manning is better than Brady? It seems like you pick and choose when you want to insert STATS into the discussion. It's not ok to compare Addai's stats to Maroney's because Maroney doesn't get tha ball as much(although there are reasons WHY he doesn't), but you can use a STAT(points scored) when I bring up the facts that other GREAT offenses also had strong running games?

I said the best offense ever. YOU said it was based on stats.
Although you'd have a hard time convicing me that WINS AND POINTS aren't the definition of the best offense.

And there are absolutely reasons why Addai has more carries. About 5 a game ot be exact, and I just explained them all in my last post. Perhaps you can learn something from that.

To summarize:
Maroney has fewer carries because:
1) We are more effective in the passing game
2) We kind of like that Kevin Faulk guy in the passing game so we give him about 4 a game
3) We blow a lot of teams out, so when Addai is getting 4th quarter carries, Maroney's day is over because he isnt needed any more, and BB is a pretty smart guy who decides it doesnt make much sense to have your franchise back take 20 extra hits for nothing.

 

[danny88]

Wow a lot of people against drafting him. These results are showing NSA and I are far from the only ones.

 

[Ring 6]

Robert Smith had a 4.8 YPC in 98 and 1200 yards rushing. Faulk had a 5.3 YPC and almost 1400 yards rushing in 2001 . That is what TRUE STUDS do when they run behind the best passing offense in the league.

I am very comfortable in saying that after playing 9 games into his 2nd year in the NFL that Maroney is not as good as Robert Smith at his peak, when he was the best RB in the NFL, or Marshall Faulk at his peak when he was the best RB in the NFL.
Robert Smith of 1998 and Marshall Faulk of 2001 would be the 2 best RBs in the NFL this year.
I dont expect Maroney to be playing the level of a Hall of Famer at his peak yet.
Intersting that those are the guys you compare him to in order to prove he sucks.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Two things:

1) Very bad way to ask the question. The issue is not whether you could go back in time and yadda yadda yadda. What would you do if you had pick #198in 2000? Would you maybe pick up that skinny kid from Michigan that backed up Brian Griese? By the same token, when Maroney was drafted, were there some washouts who were picked BEFORE him? The question isn't whether every pick is an absolute beast; the question is whether we've got decent value for our pick. I say for the end of the first round, his performance thus far does justify the draft pick. He's not a strikeout. He's not a home run. Don't compare him solely to the perceived home runs without mentioning the strikeouts. "If you had it to do over again," the chances are probably about 20 to 1 that you'd pick SOMEBODY else over the guy you DID pick, especially when you pick late in the round.

2) One guy said "looking back anybody who'd pick Maroney over Addai is fooling himself." Yeah maybe. And anybody who defended the Ronnie Brown pick originally was wrong (Cadillac had the big first year,) then right (Ronnie Brown came on strong,) then wrong (Brown spends a lot of time injured...) then maybe right, or maybe it doesn't matter (Now both of them are out.) Beyond that example, it's insane not to recognize the possibillity that we haven't seen the end of the development of Laurence Maroney.

My litmus test, once again, is what the front office and coach of this very successful team think of the given talent. Thus far, they're not giving up on him. Their perceptions at the moment seem to match my own. Maybe I'm more loyal, and will have to flip positions on a dime when they do.

Last note: For this football team, the logical, rational course of action is to admit the front office/coaches will continually surprise you, and you will almost always end up being "wrong" about the decision. I am too used to this to fight it anymore. They win super bowls and, most recently, come up with what may be an undefeated season.

I don't do those things.

Therefore I defer to the wisdom of our FO/coaching staff. I don't have the luxury of a Redskins fan to say "They don't know what they're doing." It's one of the frustrations of being a Pats fan, and it's a good frustration to have.

PFnV

 

[Ring 6]

And yet this old, decrepit RB outproduced Maroney's numbers handily in 2001. What's the excuse now? Is our elite passing offense holding back Maroney? We already know that's a lie, when we examine history and see how Faulk, James, Addai, and R. Smith thrived in pass happy offenses.

Wow, you are reaching. Antowain Smith carried the ball over that season more than twice as much as Maroney has so far this year, and ran for 4.0 yards. Yeah, thats apples to apples.

I have shown the difference between Addai's carries and Maroneys in reality are small, and there are obvious facotrs affecting it.

Our 'pass happy' offense isn't holding Maroney back, it is creating coaching decisions that we throw more. How difficult is that to understand.
When you factor in 3 full games missed, plus the entire second half of blowouts, and don't even count all of the other carries that Maroney didn't get because games were already decided, he has played AT MOST 8 full games.

So he has 118 rushes for 511 yards and a 4.3 average.
That over 16 games is 236 rushes for 1022 yards.

What is wrong with that for a team who has had 75% of their games over by the 4th quarter?

 

[DaBruinz]

The flaw in this reasoning is that Addai and the Colts DO have a pass happy offense. With a QB like Peyton Manning and weapons like Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, the Colts ARE the Original Pass Happy O. And Addai still PRODUCES in the framework of that offense.

Marvin Harrison has missed over half the season. Anthony Gonzalez missed two games and was a non-factor in 2 more. Clark missed a game. And Ben Utecht missed 1. Of course, Utecht, Harrison and Gonzalez also missed all the same game. There by giving more touches to Addai.

Also, I think its funny you IGNORE the fact that the Colts have a 2 back system while the Pats have a 3 back system. And the Colts haven't used a passing offense like the Pats used against the Eagles. In fact, there hasn't been a single game where the Colts ran the ball less than 20 times.

Also, the Colts have been running their zone blocking for a lot longer than the Pats. Something that has to be considered.

The fact is that the Colts trust Addai more, therefore they include him more in his gameplans. If Addai was a scrub, he would not be given the ball over 200 times and trusted to pass protect for Manning.

Sorry, this is your ASSUMPTION that they trust Addai more. The fact is that they use a different offense than the Pats.

It's not simply more opportunity producing the numbers for Addai, to this point he has simply been BETTER than Maroney. He produced over 1,000 yards as a rookie and already has over 900 yards through 12 games in his second season. Even as a Patriot fan, if I take off the homer tinted lenses, I can see that he's better.

Yes, with an O-line that's been using the same system for years. And don't forget that last year, Addai was used in a complimentary system. Its not Maroney's fault that he took a helmet to the upper rib cage that dislocated 2 ribs and messed his shoulder up.

If you compare just the raw numbers, without any context, yes, Addai is better. Addai does seem to be more polished than Maroney. OH, did you forget to mention that Addai is 2 years OLDER than Maroney, played 5 years in college compared to Maroney's 3 and was regularly used as a wide-out in College because of LSU's offense?

So, yes, Addai is more polished, and to this point better, but he's more experienced as well.

The reason Maroney has not been involved more in the Patriots gameplan is pretty easy to see with simple observation: he is not a good pass catcher out of the backfield, his pass protection needs work, and he is not a tough interior runner. Why does Maroney get less touches? Could it be that the Patriots coaching staff simply doesn't TRUST him to carry the load yet? It seems so obvious when somebody finally says it, doesn't it?

Actually, he's a good pass catcher out of the backfield when he's used that way. But, again, he wasn't used much in that respect because the Gophers offense is predicated extremely heavily towards the run. He had to BEG his coaches to get him to pass the ball more. They reluctantly did so.

The fact that Maroney gets injured frequently has probably hampered his development, sure.

Again, this is BS. He's had ONE injury that isn't catastrophic in nature. To say that he gets injured frequently or is injury prone is BS and shows a lack of understanding of the differences injuries and which injuries are avoidable.

But you can't "hang your hat" on the injury excuse as a universal excuse for ALL of Maroney's deficiencies. Right now he looks like a #2 RB at best. He did contribute some in the passing game vs the Ravens, so who knows, maybe he can improve that aspect of his game. But right now, Maroney (#21 2006) has a LONG way to go before he can be compared with the likes of Joseph Addai (#30 2006) or a back like Willis McGahee (#23 2003) who showed us last night what a REAL #1 RB can do.

Maroney is a 22 year old RB who only had 3 years of college, compared to 5 for Addai. So, yeah, I say we have to give him 2 more years of development.

I really wish people would stop saying that McGahee showed us what a REAL #1 RB can do because it means you didn't watch the game. The only reason that McGahee did anything was because the Pats D-line was being tackled regularly without any calls being made.

 

[Deus Irae]

And yet this old, decrepit RB outproduced Maroney's numbers handily in 2001. What's the excuse now? Is our elite passing offense holding back Maroney? We already know that's a lie, when we examine history and see how Faulk, James, Addai, and R. Smith thrived in pass happy offenses.

In 2001, Smith rushed for 4.0 yards per carry, and 10.1 yards per catch. Maroney is averaging 4.3 yards per carry and 29 yards per catch this season. For his career, Maroney is averaging 4.3 yards per carry and 11.9 yards per catch.

Last season, in a non "Pass friendly" system, Maroney ran for 745 yards on 175 carries. That is a 4.3 ypc number, again, and was a better average than the same Cory Dillon that some people have taken to clamoring for in the past week (Dillon averaged 4.1 ypc). Hes' only fumbled once in 293 carries to date, which isn't exactly horrible, either (although that will likely jinx him). And one last bit to note before we toss him out to pasture and proclaim him a bust...... the kid's just 22 years old.

Edit: my apologies to a couple of you above whom I ended up almost parroting. I took far too long to post this after I finished typing it up.

 

[Joker]

You're too logical Angry Zeus....doesn't fit in with the over the top anti-Maroney hysteria

 

[Ring 6]

Peyton Manning threw for over 4500 yards in 2004 and Edgerrin James ran for over 1500 yards. Is anyone going to tell me that Brady could not be putting up the same stats and still have a STUD running back eating up yards on the ground? Or are we suppossed to believe Edgerrin James circa 2004 would have been on the sideline like LoMo was in Buffalo while Brady and the boys winged it on the field? Don't you think oppossing defenses would be more concerned about our offense if Edgerrin James was on the field and Gaffney(the 4WR in 4 WR sets) was on the sideline? Seriously, the excuses for why Maroney doesn't touch the ball more are flat out silly. SILLY.

It is not a matter of whether we COULD run more, it is a matter of the coaching staff has chosen not to and the result is 40 points a game. Are you telling me the coaching staff has made poor decisions to throw as much as they have?

But what the hell, lets play anyway.
Edgerin James in 2004 was an all-pro RB. Again you want to compare Maroney to all-pros to show he sucks, which makes no sense to me.

Maroney has played AT MOST 8 games. (He missed 3 and didn't play the 2nd half of 2 blowouts. I am not even counting the other games that he was out because the game was over)

His 8 games numbers, over a full season would equate to 236 rushes for 1022.
So, lets compare to James of 2004.

The Patriot coaching staff decided early in the season to give some of the carries to Maroneys backup, Sammy Morris. He has gained 384 yards. The coaching staff has this veteran guy Faulk who is pretty good in the passing game. So they give him 4 carries a week, and he has 219 yards.
Oh, wait a minute. Our offense is doing MORE in the RUNNING GAME THAN THE 2004 Colts. And we arent even counting the mop up guys.

OK, you;ve got me.
Compared to an ALLPRO RB, because we have Kevin Faulk who will get about 20% of the yards James has, and the fact that we liked our backup before he got hurt, we are getting 2/3 of what Edgerin James did as an all-pro out of Maroney, and picking up the other 1/3 from some other players, Maroney must really stink.
I mean getting 2/3 of the yards of an ALLPRO each game while your backups get 1/3 of the production, wow, what a bust.

 

[The 12th Man]

I would still draft Maroney without a doubt.

 

[Ring 6]

I love this BOGUS logic of how it would be taking the ball out of Brady's hands to give it to a GOOD RB.

Was Peyton Manning whining about how having to hand off the ball to Edgerrin James was "taking the ball out of his hands" en route to his 49 TD passes?
NO. You know why? Because he's actually a smart QB. Manning happened to understand that it made his job EASIER to have a stud RB to hand the ball off to, because defenses couldn't load up against the pass all day long!

Something by the way defenses like the Eagles and Ravens have tried to do recently with some success. And guess what, it is starting to work! Brady had only 1 TD pass against the Eagles and only 2 against the Ravens.
Hardly shoddy work by Brady, but the Patriots point production HAS gone down lately in TWO games that featured that pass heavy game plan that you seem to adore so much! What a shocker?? Pats scored vs Eagles 31, vs Ravens 27. Their average before those two games, 41 points ppg. Thats a DROP of about 10 PPG. Think we'd have this much of a problem scoring in those games if we had a real STUD RB to hand off to instead of Maroney??

I'm sure some of you will disagree. You are welcome to keep the blinders on, but I prefer to look at things realistically.

You arent arguing about Maroneys ability you are arguing about the Patriots coaching staff and their gameplans.
I guess we would be so much better if we had a SMART QB like Peyton Manning instead of those morons Brady and Belichick.

What exactly are you arguing? We SHOULD throw less than BB feels we should? What part of the success of our offense are you having a problem with?
Should we expect to be 14-0 after 12 games? Should we expect to DOUBLE the scoring record?

 

[danny88]

50 / 50 so far on drafting Maroney. So much for NSA and I being the only ones who think Maroney is a average at best.




75 percent of voters polled are either against, or unsure about maroney coming in to week thirteen of year 2.

Im sorry but Maroney was a highly coveted first round draft choice. When is this kid going to "break out"? Avg shelf life for an NFL back is 4 years. 50 percent there?

 

[Ring 6]

I am glad I got into this, I feel better about Maroney than ever.
How about this:

Maroney has played 8 games this season. Last years he played 13 full games (he had 4 carries in the Detroit game that he was injured in)

So, he has played 21 games (again we arent accounting for the fact that he has been out large parts of games we are far ahead in) and gained 1242 yards in those games.
That comes out to 946 rushing yards over a full season.

So, as a rookie, he played half the time because we had a veteran who was entrenched as #1. In year 2 he has lost carries due to being in a great passing offense, and having decent backups who get some carries, at the rate of about 6-7 a game.

And with those factors, when he has played he is 95% as productive as a 1000 yard rusher while averaging a good 4.3 yards per carry.

Lets hope he stays healthy because it looks like based on these numbers, we will either continue to tear it up in the passing game and his numbers will be good, or he may get some more opportunities (over 2 years the quality of the rest of the RBs dropped his carries by 50% in 06 and 33% in 07) and we will have a 1300-1400 yard RB.

 

[DaBruinz]

Exactly. Poeple act as if our offense still wouldn't be putting up all these points if we had a great running back on it that got the rock. The 2001 Rams say hello with Marshall Faulk. The 1998 Vikings say hello with Robert Smith. The Colts of the past 7 years say hello with Edgerrin James and Joseph Addai. People are living in la la land if they think a TRUE STUD running back couldn't be implementted into this offense and that the offense would not keep rolling.

I think its funny you changed your arguments. You were saying the 1999 Rams before.

1) The 2001 Rams: 551 passing attempts for 4903 yards. 416 running attempts for 2027 yards. SINGLE BACK system. Marshall Faulk got 260 runs and Trung Candidate had 78. Marshall Faulk was an 8 year vet.

2) The 1998 Vikings: 533 passing attempts for 4492 yards. 450 rushing attempts for 1916 yards. Two back system. Robert Smith got 249 rushes and Leroy Hoard had 115. Robert Smith was a 6 year vet.

3) 2007 Patriots (projected) : 584 passing attempts for 4999 yards. 475 running attempts for 1941 yards (that is 92 and 76 more plays than the Rams and Vikings). However, Pats use multiple backs in every game.

No one is saying a "true stud" RB couldn't be implemented into the system. However, you aren't comparing apples to apples. You are comparing apples to oranges. You're expectations are MAJORLY flawed because you ignore Maroney's inexperience.

During Faulks 2nd year in the league, he was EXPECTED to carry the load because Indy's passing game was mediocre.

During Smith's 2nd year in the league, he played in 14 games, yet ran the ball only 31 times for 106 years.

Edgerrin James 2nd year in the league, he had 387 rushes because the Colts needed him to carry the load for their offense.

Clinton Portis 2nd year in the league, Denver's running game carried the load because their passing game was mediocre.

 

[DaBruinz]

Why? Dillon was a top 5 back in 2004. People said Brady would never put up BIG STATS under Belichick. This year wiped out that theory. People said Moss wouldn't put up BIG STATS because Brady spreads it around. That theory is out the window. Fellas, this offense would be even MORE explosive if it had a STUD running back. The 98 Vikings had Robert Smith and the 2001 Rams had Marshall Faulk and still winged it around too. Nuff' said.

The 1998 Vikings and the 2001 Rams had EXPERIENCED RBs in there.

If you think there isn't a difference between a 22 year old and a 27 or 28 year old, your an even bigger fool than you've already proven yourself to be.

 

[Deus Irae]

50 / 50 so far on drafting Maroney. So much for NSA and I being the only ones who think Maroney is a average at best.




75 percent of voters polled are either against, or unsure about maroney coming in to week thirteen of year 2.

Im sorry but Maroney was a highly coveted first round draft choice. When is this kid going to "break out"? Avg shelf life for an NFL back is 4 years. 50 percent there?

That's strange.... I'm using your "CNN style" of interpreting polls for myself, and I come up with a different take. According to my reading of the poll, 75% of posters either think Maroney's a great back, or aren't sure whether he's great or not yet. That's amazing for a 22 year old who's missed time due to injury and is limited by the "pass first, past next, pass last" style of offense on the team he plays for.

 

[danny88]

The 1998 Vikings and the 2001 Rams had EXPERIENCED RBs in there.

If you think there isn't a difference between a 22 year old and a 27 or 28 year old, your an even bigger fool than you've already proven yourself to be.

Haha hey dabruinz do you insult your kids the same way when they do not agree with you?

 

[Ring 6]

50 / 50 so far on drafting Maroney. So much for NSA and I being the only ones who think Maroney is a average at best.




75 percent of voters polled are either against, or unsure about maroney coming in to week thirteen of year 2.

Im sorry but Maroney was a highly coveted first round draft choice. When is this kid going to "break out"? Avg shelf life for an NFL back is 4 years. 50 percent there?

You dont even understand your own poll.
The fact that 25% of voters could find a guy IN THE FIRST ROUND they would like to draft does not equate to proof of average at best.