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2021 Patriots Season:
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Next Up: vs Saints
Pick Results: NO: 13.6% at NE: 86.4%

Sun
Sep 26th

Current Patriots Twitter Feed:

jal

On the Roster
This is the kind of crap that is embarrassing. It seems some of those ex-Pats coaches like Joe Judge and Fat Matt P are complete d-bags. If it wasn’t for Brady and a lessor extent Bill neither of these clowns would have ever landed those jobs. Brady has made multi millionaires out of a lot of people that never deserved it.
You really only saw quotes like that coming after ~2014 and really escalating after the forced JG trade in 2017. Somehow I think Kraft forcing Bill’s hand there and protecting Tom made Bill act emotionally / out of character with respect to Tom and that pervaded across the coaching staff. The complete refusal to create a clear succession plan after JG was shipped out but also refusing to commit to Tom at the same time just feels like spite.

Bill has to own the consequences of that now. Unfortunately so do we as fans.
 

luuked

Hall of Fame Poster
You're honestly making a big deal about an extra $5M on Brady's 2020 cap hit? Patrick Mahomes just signed a $503M contract; Aaron Rodgers signed a $134M extension in 2018. We are really talking about an impossible burden of fitting in $5M extra? And $30M overall for an NFL quarterback? Did the team not pay Joe Thuney and Devin McCourty $29M in 2020? This is high risk?

You and the members of the cult can keep bringing up the numbers and all I can tell you is that he simply would have not been worth 25M and certainly not 30M+ given the roster. He showed in 2019 that he can't elevate an offense like that. There is no argument in the world you can show me that will change my opinion that it was the right decision to let him go given his contract, salary demands and pissy attitude. **** keeping someone around for nostalgia.

On the other hand he was absolutely worth the money for Tampa because he had a stacked offense that acted as a multiplier for him and a pretty good defense.

I don't see how paying Thuney or DMac has any comparison value to the QB situation. If you move to a younger QB -- which was the plan until Cam agreed to a dirt cheap deal late June -- what you want to have in place is a very stable OL. It made sense to keep Thuney. Obviously it would have been nicer to extend him instead of tagging him but the two sides couldn't find common ground in an offseason that saw pretty few long term extensions amid COVID uncertainty. It is what it is.

Similarly DMac has been -- together with HT -- THE key defensive player of the 10s. Keeping him around makes sense on the field, in the locker room and also as a mentor.

No risk it, no biscuit.

Go away and join some Bucs board if you believe this absolute ********. Please. Everything in this sport is first about risk mitigation and finding an edge that you can ride.

This wasn't based on the salary cap; it was based on (a) thinking he's probably done, and (b) believing in The Patriot Way over any indivdual player.

This is just Felger level dumb. It is ALWAYS about the salary cap. Everything and every move is based on it. If Brady would have accepted a ~ 15M deal he would have gotten his multi year contract and still been the QB here. The only way to define value in the league is by association to the salary cap. This has always been the way in this organization since BB took over.

This entire narrative of "they thought he was done" is just a strawman looneys spun up to pointlessly grief against BB and Kraft because they felt like the two took something from them that was rightfully theirs. But then again that is par for the course with the maybe worst fanbase in this sport that behaves like playoffs and titles are their birthright.

I don't see why you can't just acknolwedge that the Patriots have (a) been great for 20 years at keeping Brady happy and building championship teams around him, and (b) undervalued him, or overvalued Bill, or whatever you want to call it, in 2020. I'll take that tradeoff every time. But we're talking about what happened last year now.

Exactly how did the Patriots undervalue Brady ? Nothing he did in Tampa has any relevance for what he would have been able to do in another year throwing to (injured) Edelman, Meyers, Harry & co. This team wasn't a contender with or without Brady. At least we saved a lot of money and didn't have to dismantle the backbone of our defense.

You are acting like we would have been a SB contender by keeping him which is just a drug-fueled pipedream.
 
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everlong

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
You and the members of the cult can keep bringing up the numbers and all I can tell you is that he simply would have not been worth 25M and certainly not 30M+ given the roster. He showed in 2019 that he can't elevate an offense like that.

They won 5 more games and scored 94 more points with essentially the same offensive core. Yes Brady had JE11 but he didn't have Andrews and the OL missed more games last year. They were leaky as could be. He went to Tampa and with no offseason, no preseason threw for 4633, 40/12. With a year in the offense if they just stop forcing the ball to Mike Evans he'll probably 5k and 50 for the second time in his career.

In the end Bill the GM and Bob the appeaser F'd this up. If they can get on another draft roll and find a QB I expect Bill the coach is going to silence a lot of the Andy Reid is in his league talk.
 

DarrylS

PatsFans.com Supporter
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2019 Weekly Picks Winner
Much of this has been "ginned up" by the sportstalk mediots whose goal is to create controversy... and Zolak walks out of the room choosing to be silent.

Glad to see PFK brought up the elbow issues in 2019, I have been banging the drum on that pretty much all year in response to those who lament the loss of Brady.. the Brady we saw in the last 1/2 of the "19- '20 season was not the Brady that we were used to.

This is a silly inane argument that will never end... #12 wanted to move on and there were many signs.. he & Guerrero both had their houses up for sale and he was non-committal about staying.
 

Sfpat

In the Starting Line-Up
I'll take BB at his word. The Pats went all in for a period to let TB go out on top, won a few SBs then it became time to pay the bill. The choice was TB with essentially the same 2019 weapons but without Thuney/DMac and others or new QB with essentially the same weapons and Thuney/DMac and others. In one respect, BB did TB a favor, knowing that he would not have has success this past season with the Pats. It was time to move on.
 

sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
I'll take BB at his word. The Pats went all in for a period to let TB go out on top, won a few SBs then it became time to pay the bill. The choice was TB with essentially the same 2019 weapons but without Thuney/DMac and others or new QB with essentially the same weapons and Thuney/DMac and others. In one respect, BB did TB a favor, knowing that he would not have has success this past season with the Pats. It was time to move on.
The Pats first had Jarrett Stidham as the heir to Brady. That experiment was a colossal failure in every single possible way as we saw this year.

Would have been nice if moving on from Brady in 2020 meant we had a QB on the roster that was ready to take over, like Favre to Rodgers.
 

Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
They won 5 more games

The points argument is valid, but I can't say the only big difference this year was Brady to Cam. This defense lost it's NT, top FOUR LB, starting SS and it's 3rd safety (who played a borderline starter number of snaps each year). Brady would have absolutely gotten us a better record in 2020, but if that defense had also not been able to keep McCourty and/or Thuney wasn't franchised? They're not winning 12 again, even with Brady. 10 is probably the limit, given what we saw this year. Brady won 11 with a stacked team and a 2 time Coach of the Year in Tampa. Chalk a few losses up to learning a new team, but he never would have hit the same stride with this Pats team. They just weren't poised cap-wise to make a run in 2020.
 

Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
Would have been nice if moving on from Brady in 2020 meant we had a QB on the roster that was ready to take over, like Favre to Rodgers.

I agree with this, but that almost never happens intentionally. Montana to Young was great, but Young was picked up after failing for his previous team, so it's not like they went out and got him specifically to take over for their all time great. They may have known they had someone by the time they let Montana walk, but the Next Guy came from an unlikely source originally.

Favre to Rodgers is interesting, because you almost had the same situation here with Brady to Garropolo. Problem was, Brady just kept chugging. Rodgers sat for three years before taking over, and that first year he took a team that went 13-3 the year before and went 6-10 in his first year as the starter. It eventually got better, but it wasn't like that transition was seamless in year one for them either. No doubt we don't have a Rodgers in the wings to even grow with, but it's not like we would have automatically just kept being great if we had a young QB ready to go, especially with the roster we had in 2020.
 

Sciz

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
They won 5 more games and scored 94 more points with essentially the same offensive core. Yes Brady had JE11 but he didn't have Andrews and the OL missed more games last year. They were leaky as could be. He went to Tampa and with no offseason, no preseason threw for 4633, 40/12. With a year in the offense if they just stop forcing the ball to Mike Evans he'll probably 5k and 50 for the second time in his career.

In the end Bill the GM and Bob the appeaser F'd this up. If they can get on another draft roll and find a QB I expect Bill the coach is going to silence a lot of the Andy Reid is in his league talk.
21 of those points were the difference in non-offensive touchdowns (7 in 2019, 4 in 2020). The remaining 19.7% decrease in scoring was a result of 17.4% fewer drives and 2.6% fewer points per drive. The drive pace was a much bigger factor in the scoring total difference than the per-drive efficiency.

The difference between 2019's 1.95 PPD and 2020's 1.90 is even less significant when you compare them to 2018's 2.22 or 2017's 2.59.

(had to delete and repost because I missed Gunner's PR and that messed up all my math)
 
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50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
21 of those points were the difference in non-offensive touchdowns (7 in 2019, 4 in 2020). The remaining 19.7% decrease in scoring was a result of 17.4% fewer drives and 2.6% fewer points per drive. The drive pace was a much bigger factor in the scoring total difference than the per-drive efficiency.

(had to delete and repost because I missed Gunner's PR and that messed up all my math)
Pats also had a cakewalk schedule in 2019. The Jets, Bills, and Dolphins all sucked, with Buffalo still a year away and the Dolphins in rebuild. They barely had to travel, playing the NFC (L)East, and the AFC north. Toughest games of the first 8 were Pittsburgh at home for the banner raising, and Cleveland. Almost all of their toughest games were at home, too.

Half their games this year were against playoff teams.

Schedules matter. A lot.
 

patsfanincleveland

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
They won 5 more games and scored 94 more points with essentially the same offensive core. Yes Brady had JE11 but he didn't have Andrews and the OL missed more games last year. They were leaky as could be. He went to Tampa and with no offseason, no preseason threw for 4633, 40/12. With a year in the offense if they just stop forcing the ball to Mike Evans he'll probably 5k and 50 for the second time in his career.

In the end Bill the GM and Bob the appeaser F'd this up. If they can get on another draft roll and find a QB I expect Bill the coach is going to silence a lot of the Andy Reid is in his league talk.

Yeah this shows where you don't understand what the other poster is very nicely trying to explain to you.

Just because you are a fanboi does not mean you abdicate the responsibility to think matters through. Otherwise, just join the other goofballs over at the BB criticism mega thread.

You know why they won more games? Because their greatest hindrance to success was their 2019 QB who threw 30+ picks and something like 8 pick 6's. Take the time to compare other the other stats you want to quote for some reason.

Tampa needed to go from horrendous to competent.

That exactly what wasn't need in Foxboro. is that a problem?

No, because the rebuild had to start at some point.
 

moosekill

In the Starting Line-Up
The Pats first had Jarrett Stidham as the heir to Brady. That experiment was a colossal failure in every single possible way as we saw this year.

Would have been nice if moving on from Brady in 2020 meant we had a QB on the roster that was ready to take over, like Favre to Rodgers.
So wait, you are telling us you don't like Stidham????? Never would have guessed.
 

moosekill

In the Starting Line-Up
Belichick doesn't like Stidham and his opinion matters a lot more than mine. :)
Once again you have no clue and are spouting off as always. Does it make you happy to keep saying this stuff over and over. Are you really Dropkick's second account. He posts about Josh and you post about Stidham? Don't you think it gets kind of old after a while?
 
  • Ha Ha
Reactions: sb1

sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
Once again you have no clue and are spouting off as always. Does it make you happy to keep saying this stuff over and over. Are you really Dropkick's second account. He posts about Josh and you post about Stidham? Don't you think it gets kind of old after a while?
Stidham blows. There's no point elaborating on something that is as obvious as day.

You're the one that brought it up not me. I only said that it would have been nice if the team had a viable QB (which Stidham isn't) that could have taken over for Brady if they were moving on from him.
 

luuked

Hall of Fame Poster
They won 5 more games and scored 94 more points with essentially the same offensive core. Yes Brady had JE11 but he didn't have Andrews and the OL missed more games last year. They were leaky as could be. He went to Tampa and with no offseason, no preseason threw for 4633, 40/12. With a year in the offense if they just stop forcing the ball to Mike Evans he'll probably 5k and 50 for the second time in his career.

None of this is relevant.


The 2019 defense scored how many points ? How often did they (and ST) leave the offense with a short field ? They allowed on average 14.4 points per game whereas the 2020 counter parts ended up at 22.1. You don't think that matters ?

The reality is that overall the offense was as dysfunctional and couldn't consistently move the ball in 2019 as their 2020 successors. The reasons might vary but the bottomline remains the same. One drop or penalty and most drives were dead in the water. Hell, despite all his limitations the Cam Newton edition of the offense was more successful in the redzone than whatever we put onto the field in 2019. And lets not even get started on the COVID mess.

Similarly, what Brady did, didn't do or will do in Tampa is totally irrelevant for a discussion about his value when throwing to Edelman, Meyers, Byrd and Harry.
 

everlong

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
None of this is relevant.


The 2019 defense scored how many points ? How often did they (and ST) leave the offense with a short field ? They allowed on average 14.4 points per game whereas the 2020 counter parts ended up at 22.1. You don't think that matters ?

The reality is that overall the offense was as dysfunctional and couldn't consistently move the ball in 2019 as their 2020 successors. The reasons might vary but the bottomline remains the same. One drop or penalty and most drives were dead in the water. Hell, despite all his limitations the Cam Newton edition of the offense was more successful in the redzone than whatever we put onto the field in 2019. And lets not even get started on the COVID mess.

Similarly, what Brady did, didn't do or will do in Tampa is totally irrelevant for a discussion about his value when throwing to Edelman, Meyers, Byrd and Harry.

Of course its relevant. In 2006 Brady had as crappy of a receiving core and still got them to the AFCCG. In 2007 when he had weapons they went undefeated. 2019 was 2006 and going to Tampa with weapons was 2007. If Bill gave him tools to work with he would still rise to the top here as he did in Tampa. Unfortunately the roster management has been subpar for a while and now they're paying the price.

There's no way Newton would have come close to 12 wins or 94 more points with the 2019 roster I don't care how many short fields the defense or special teams gave him.

This is obviously as you stated one of those arguments where nobody is going to convince you otherwise and to be fair I'm just as firm in the other direction so we can just let it go.

EDIT: And no I'm not saying 2020 Brady = 2007 Brady but at 95% of the physical tools and maybe better than 100% of the mental since he's continued to learn it's a close as anybody else besides Mahomes.
 

patsfanincleveland

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Of course its relevant. In 2006 Brady had as crappy of a receiving core and still got them to the AFCCG. In 2007 when he had weapons they went undefeated. 2019 was 2006 and going to Tampa with weapons was 2007. If Bill gave him tools to work with he would still rise to the top here as he did in Tampa. Unfortunately the roster management has been subpar for a while and now they're paying the price.

There's no way Newton would have come close to 12 wins or 94 more points with the 2019 roster I don't care how many short fields the defense or special teams gave him.

This is obviously as you stated one of those arguments where nobody is going to convince you otherwise and to be fair I'm just as firm in the other direction so we can just let it go.

EDIT: And no I'm not saying 2020 Brady = 2007 Brady but at 95% of the physical tools and maybe better than 100% of the mental since he's continued to learn it's a close as anybody else besides Mahomes.

So you are saying that 2020 is not 2007 Brady but he has almost all the physical skills and superior mental skills. This will not dawn in your head but......you're saying 2020 Brady is better.

It's almost like there is a rush to publish the dumbest, most incoherent post.

Where exactly is he suppose to like come up with weapons?

Did the CAP support it?

BB wanted to keep Brown but Winkie Bob said cut. Did your boi go to his second father and ask as a second son to spare the WR?

Who kept Gordon straight?

Why was his bestie TE still retired in 2019?
 

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