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2021 Patriots Season:
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Sun
Sep 26th

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Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
If anything, Belichick erred also in his estimation of how much Brady or Scarnecchia helped with the OL in previous years.

I can't agree with this statement. I don't think the OL was an intentional group on BB's part, certainly not out of some arrogance that Dante could coach up "anybody". He had a first round LT who got hurt, a center that developed blood clots right before the season started, and two veterans who retired in training camp. The worst you could say is he should have seen the retirees coming (maybe), but asking him to predict his LT and C being missing for most of the season is a bit harsh. And that's not even getting into Mason's potential injury. That OL wasn't a problem with Bill's arrogance, it was some horrible luck mixed with missing the signs on a couple of aging vets.
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
I can't agree with this statement. I don't think the OL was an intentional group on BB's part, certainly not out of some arrogance that Dante could coach up "anybody". He had a first round LT who got hurt, a center that developed blood clots right before the season started, and two veterans who retired in training camp. The worst you could say is he should have seen the retirees coming (maybe), but asking him to predict his LT and C being missing for most of the season is a bit harsh. And that's not even getting into Mason's potential injury. That OL wasn't a problem with Bill's arrogance, it was some horrible luck mixed with missing the signs on a couple of aging vets.

That's not really what I was saying. I was instead making the point that assessing Brady based on the total debacle we saw behind that line was not really fair. I agree with you on what you wrote, and even Jared Veldheer's "retirement" worked against us since he was going to be the tackle backup. My point is that BB blamed the problems equally on Brady. If Brady had been behind the line that Newton played behind, he would have had a very good year. Cam got a ton of time.
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
How do you know that Belichick "thought Brady was losing it"? What evidence is there of that?

The OL, by the way, was intact the second half of last year. It's one reason why the running game got rolling. The defense slipped from their otherworldly play from the first half of the season, but the D wasn't the main problem in the divisional game against Tennessee (the D only gave up 14 points in that game).

A lot of Insider info from the journalists closest connected to the team, coupled with the 1 year contract offers. Even what Kraft said prior to the season told me this was the team's assessment. Kraft implied he had deteriorated and SAID he should have retired.

Disagree on the OL. Wynn came back late from injury and was not well. Mason and Cannon were really hurt. Andrews never came back.
 

Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
That's not really what I was saying. I was instead making the point that assessing Brady based on the total debacle we saw behind that line was not really fair. I agree with you on what you wrote, and even Jared Veldheer's "retirement" worked against us since he was going to be the tackle backup. My point is that BB blamed the problems equally on Brady. If Brady had been behind the line that Newton played behind, he would have had a very good year. Cam got a ton of time.

Gotcha, sorry for the confusion on your point. I'm also not convinced that Bill really thought Brady was "done", just that he didn't think he was still good enough to elevate the team he expected to be able to able to put around his QB. But that's as much conjecture on my part as what anyone is saying, so I won't argue it vehemently. Just, in my mind, Bill has been so good over the years at evaluating veteran talent in the league, it would shock me if he didn't read Brady's abilities (in a vacuum) correctly.
 

ivanvamp

In the Starting Line-Up
A lot of Insider info from the journalists closest connected to the team, coupled with the 1 year contract offers. Even what Kraft said prior to the season told me this was the team's assessment. Kraft implied he had deteriorated and SAID he should have retired.

Disagree on the OL. Wynn came back late from injury and was not well. Mason and Cannon were really hurt. Andrews never came back.

Care to share that "insider info"? The 1-year contract offers can easily be explained by BB wanting to not tie himself down long-term *in case* Brady started falling off a cliff at his age.

I mean, do you REALLY think that Belichick thought that Tom Brady was a *worse* option for 2020 - from a football standpoint - than Jarrod Stidham, Brian Hoyer, or Cam Newton (who BB added very late in the game and obviously wasn't Plan A when he let Brady walk)?
 

Boomer B

In the Starting Line-Up
Seriously? You didn't get the Animal House reference? Or were you thinking about the substance of his post when you put this up there?
Yup, I got the Animal House reference, the meme is for the sum of all his posts on the subject
 

PATS16N0

In the Starting Line-Up
Disagree.

Tom deserved more than to have his decline “expected” and be dumped and traded before any noticeable sign of it actually appeared. That is total bull****.

Belichick takes a huge L on this, and because it’s over the GOAT who gave us fairytale football for twenty years, it’s a real big one.
 

scout

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Disagree.

Tom deserved more than to have his decline “expected” and be dumped and traded before any noticeable sign of it actually appeared. That is total bull****.

Belichick takes a huge L on this, and because it’s over the GOAT who gave us fairytale football for twenty years, it’s a real big one.
No. It does not matter what an athlete has done in the past. Going forward, the Patriots have the best coach in the league, an abundance of money to spend and hopefully no players who are opting out of the season. I can go to my grave with a smile on my face, but will accept more championships. That would not have happened if we signed Brady.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
PatsFans.com Supporter
Just because Brady won with an absolutely loaded roster in an ideal situation doesn't mean that Belichick was "obviously and damagingly wrong" to move on from Brady. It is highly unlikely that Brady would have gone very far with the 2020 Patriots' roster. Would they have been better than 9-7? Almost certainly. Might have even made the playoffs. But this team was going nowhere. It's time for a rebuild.

Belichick letting Brady go to another team doesn't mean that Belichick didn't think Brady had become a subpar player or anything. He just realized it was time to rebuild and rebuilding with a 43-44 year old Brady at $25+ million, given what he saw at the end of 2019, made no sense.

Brady is edging towards the end of his career.

McCourty and Slater are edging towards the end of their careers.

Could you explain how extending McCourty and Slater are consistent with your assertion that Belichick “realized it was time for a rebuild”? Could you explain why McCourty and Slater were extended despite this: Would they have been better than 9-7? Almost certainly. Might have even made the playoffs. But this team was going nowhere.

Why sign other aging veterans then? Where are the offseason moves that demonstrate Belichick was going for a rebuild because they weren’t going to win a Super Bowl this season? Where are the young players brought in, the older players sent off? Why didn’t they trade Gilmore this season?
 
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Boomer B

In the Starting Line-Up
Brady is edging towards the end of his career.

McCourty and Slater are edging towards the end of their careers.

Could you explain how extending McCourty and Slater are consistent with your assertion that Belichick “realized it was time for a rebuild”? Could you explain why McCourty and Slater were extended despite this: Would they have been better than 9-7? Almost certainly. Might have even made the playoffs. But this team was going nowhere.

Why sign other aging veterans then? Where are the offseason moves that demonstrate Belichick was going for a rebuild because they weren’t going to win a Super Bowl this season? Where are the young players brought in, the older players sent off? Why didn’t they trade Gilmore this season?
Yup. If Belichick was going for a rebuild he would have tried to trade Gilmore and possibly other vets. Resigning McCourty to the big contract is a complete head scratcher if he was going for a rebuild. Those that say it was better to let Brady go a year early rather then sign him to a 2 year deal aren’t really looking at the reality of the situation. We didn’t have a succession plan for Brady in 2018, 2019, and 2020. It didn’t make sense at all. We ended up with a complete ****show of an offence last season and a ? going into this year. A blind person could see that Bill messed this up.
 

ivanvamp

In the Starting Line-Up
Brady is edging towards the end of his career.

McCourty and Slater are edging towards the end of their careers.

Could you explain how extending McCourty and Slater are consistent with your assertion that Belichick “realized it was time for a rebuild”? Could you explain why McCourty and Slater were extended despite this: Would they have been better than 9-7? Almost certainly. Might have even made the playoffs. But this team was going nowhere.

Why sign other aging veterans then? Where are the offseason moves that demonstrate Belichick was going for a rebuild because they weren’t going to win a Super Bowl this season? Where are the young players brought in, the older players sent off? Why didn’t they trade Gilmore this season?

IMO, it's because he was still trying to be competitive in the midst of a rebuild. Here were the respective cap hits (according to spotrac) for DMac and Slater, along with what Brady got from Tampa for 2020:

McCourty: $5.4m
Slater: $2.6m
Brady: $28.3m - or about 7x what McCourty and Slater would cost *combined*.

HUGE difference.


Again, I'm going to ask: Do people here really believe that Bill Belichick thought that Jarrod Stidham or Brian Hoyer (who were the only two QBs on the roster at the time they let Brady walk) were better *from a football perspective* than Tom Brady for 2020?
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
PatsFans.com Supporter
IMO, it's because he was still trying to be competitive in the midst of a rebuild. Here were the respective cap hits (according to spotrac) for DMac and Slater, along with what Brady got from Tampa for 2020:

McCourty: $5.4m
Slater: $2.6m
Brady: $28.3m - or about 7x what McCourty and Slater would cost *combined*.

HUGE difference.

McCourty got $14M in 2020. That 5.4M doesn’t include the singing bonus paid during the first year.


Slater got about $3M. Thuney’s $14M as a franchise tag could have been negotiated as a longer term deal for better flexibility in 2020.

Had the Patriots wanted to extend Brady, they also could have avoided an additional 6.25M cap charge (his contract expiration accelerated that amount from the 2021 cap to 2020 cap), and potentially even 13.5M depending on the structure of an extension, as that could be rolled in. Considering all the cap space they have this year, it would have been easy to offload it into 2021.
 

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Boomer B

In the Starting Line-Up
IMO, it's because he was still trying to be competitive in the midst of a rebuild. Here were the respective cap hits (according to spotrac) for DMac and Slater, along with what Brady got from Tampa for 2020:

McCourty: $5.4m
Slater: $2.6m
Brady: $28.3m - or about 7x what McCourty and Slater would cost *combined*.

HUGE difference.


Again, I'm going to ask: Do people here really believe that Bill Belichick thought that Jarrod Stidham or Brian Hoyer (who were the only two QBs on the roster at the time they let Brady walk) were better *from a football perspective* than Tom Brady for 2020?
I think there’s a certain arrogance in Bill and his staff that they can win with many QBs out there. One part of that ESPN piece that stood out from a few years ago was when a member of the staff said that give them any top 15 QB in the league and they would have won those Super Bowls. A complete slap to the face of Brady.

At the end of the day though Bill made the wrong call. If like you say Bill was trying to remain competitive last year (and I agree with you on that) he could have been a lot more competitive with Brady. That’s why it makes no sense. Either give in to the rebuild and unload vets for picks or keep trying to win and keep Brady and put better talent around him, but his half assed rebuild made no sense at all.

Pretty obvious Bill badly misjudged Brady and the whole situation. Brady will likely be a top QB for 3 years after leaving the Pats (2020, 2021, 2022). Those should have been his final years in New England.
 
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ivanvamp

In the Starting Line-Up
I think there’s a certain arrogance in Bill and his staff that they can win with many QBs out there. One part of that ESPN piece that came out a few years ago was when a member of the staff said that give them any top 15 QB in the league and they would have won those Super Bowls. A complete slap to the face of Brady.

At the end of the day though Bill made the wrong call. If like you say Bill was trying to remain competitive last year (and I agree with you on that) he could have been a lot more competitive with Brady. That’s why it makes no sense. Either give in to the rebuild and unload vets for picks or keep trying to win and keep Brady and put better talent around him, but his half assed rebuild made no sense at all.

Pretty obvious Bill badly misjudged Brady and the whole situation. Brady will likely be a top QB for 3 years after leaving the Pats (2020, 2021, 2022). Those should have been his final years in New England.

It makes sense if BB was trying to rebuild and yet remain competitive, if you understand the $$ involved, which I just laid out in my previous post. It's not a huge deal to pay ~$7m for McCourty and Slater. It's another to pay $28m for Brady.
 

ivanvamp

In the Starting Line-Up
McCourty got $14M in 2020. That 5.4M doesn’t include the singing bonus paid during the first year.


Slater got about $3M. Thuney’s $14M as a franchise tag could have been negotiated as a longer term deal for better flexibility in 2020.

Had the Patriots wanted to extend Brady, they also could have avoided an additional 6.25M cap charge (his contract expiration accelerated that amount from the 2021 cap to 2020 cap), and potentially even 13.5M depending on the structure of an extension, as that could be rolled in. Considering all the cap space they have this year, it would have been easy to offload it into 2021.

I wonder why spotrac didn't include the signing bonus. It listed the total cap hit as $5.4m
 

ivanvamp

In the Starting Line-Up
I've asked numerous times now and nobody has answered the question. I'll try one more time:

Do you guys really believe that Bill Belichick thought that Jarrod Stidham or Brian Hoyer (who were the only two QBs on the roster at the time they let Brady walk) were better *from a football perspective* than Tom Brady for 2020?
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
PatsFans.com Supporter
I think there’s a certain arrogance in Bill and his staff that they can win with many QBs out there. One part of that ESPN piece that stood out from a few years ago was when a member of the staff said that give them any top 15 QB in the league and they would have won those Super Bowls. A complete slap to the face of Brady.

At the end of the day though Bill made the wrong call. If like you say Bill was trying to remain competitive last year (and I agree with you on that) he could have been a lot more competitive with Brady. That’s why it makes no sense. Either give in to the rebuild and unload vets for picks or keep trying to win and keep Brady and put better talent around him, but his half assed rebuild made no sense at all.

Pretty obvious Bill badly misjudged Brady and the whole situation. Brady will likely be a top QB for 3 years after leaving the Pats (2020, 2021, 2022). Those should have been his final years in New England.

Absolutely.

Then there’s this:

Report: Ex-Pats assistants have 'openly denigrated' Tom Brady's abilities

Weird how The Patriot Way on offense has failed outside of New England under Charlie Weis, Eric Mangini, Bill O’Brien, Josh McDaniels, Joe Judge, and Matt Patricia. Almost like the entire system itself is somewhat bunk and the quarterback running it is everything.
 

Boomer B

In the Starting Line-Up
Absolutely.

Then there’s this:

Report: Ex-Pats assistants have 'openly denigrated' Tom Brady's abilities

Weird how The Patriot Way on offense has failed outside of New England under Charlie Weis, Eric Mangini, Bill O’Brien, Josh McDaniels, Joe Judge, and Matt Patricia. Almost like the entire system itself is somewhat bunk and the quarterback running it is everything.
This is the kind of crap that is embarrassing. It seems some of those ex-Pats coaches like Joe Judge and Fat Matt P are complete d-bags. If it wasn’t for Brady and a lessor extent Bill neither of these clowns would have ever landed those jobs. Brady has made multi millionaires out of a lot of people that never deserved it.
 

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