Hall of Fame's lack of Patriots (Stanley Morgan and Richard Seymour)

[Koma]

Too lazy to search - wtf is a slappy?

You'd have to ask Ron Borges to sure how he was using it, but I took it as having a negative connotation. It's from a Boston Herald article that jmt57 quoted in post #6:

“Basically, I tried to point out all the great dynasties and all the people those teams have in the Hall. Now, you get to the Patriots. Is it one Hall of Famer (Ty Law), and 52 slappys?”

In that context, I'd interpret "slappys" to mean JAGs, nobodies, or anonymous players.

 

[bresna]

Even Hannah and Tippett who were both top two at their position during their era took years and years to get their admittance into the Hall.

John Hannah was elected to the Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility.

 

[nextsuperstar]

Seymour definitely deserves the hall of fame, but he is that tier that needs to wait for a few years, like John Lynch did. Besides Law, Brady, Seymour and Adam, there really weren’t guys in that first dynasty who are obvious hall of famers, so i don’t really see an anti-Patriots bias.

 

[Doctor DDS]

Stanley Morgan, Houston Antwine, Ben Coates, Geno Cappelletti, Bruce Armstrong are nowhere near hall of fame players. Morgan had 4 big years but never eclipsed 60 catches, 900 yards or 5 TDs during any other season

I think the main issue many Pats fans have with Morgan is the direct comparison to Lynn Swann and John Stallworth as he statistically blows them away. Lynn Swann never even had one 900 yard season let alone a 1,000 yard one. He had several great post season games and his reputation was built on that. Why he was a first team All Pro and on the all decade 70's team as his regular season career was pedestrian for a HOFer. A good career comp would be someone like Edelman. Very good regular season player and dominant in the postseason yet no one expects Edelman to be in the HOF.

 

[upstater1]

There is so much to disagree with here that I don't even know where to begin.

Stanley Morgan, Houston Antwine, Ben Coates, Geno Cappelletti, Bruce Armstrong are nowhere near hall of fame players. Morgan had 4 big years but never eclipsed 60 catches, 900 yards or 5 TDs during any other season. Antwine had a nice run but didn't even make the all-AFL second team. Same can be said for Geno, who was a nifty player who would have fit in nicely with the modern version of the team, but not much more than that. Coates peak lasted about 5 years. His stats during 4 of those years were fairly modest, and, lets be real, Shannon Sharpe was the dominant TE of the 90's. Armstrong was a very good tackle but his career overlapped some of the best to ever play the game, and if Tony Boseli can't get in, Armstrong doesn't belong.

And there is no Ron Borges conspiracy (and by the way, when did Ron Borges enter the conversation? Did I wake up and it's 2003 again?). Seymour is not in yet because there were other deserving players who have waited longer. Lynch and Faneca have been waiting forever and deserve their enshrinement. Seymour will get his turn.

And the baseball HOF being the only credible hall of fame? Harold Baines has something to say about that. The baseball HOF cannot even get any players elected despite the most prolific batter and pitcher of the past 80 years sitting on that ballot. The writers can go ahead and keep fussing over character while they polish that Ty Cobb plaque.

Stanley Morgan should be measured against his peers. Not Calvin Johnson. It was a different game back then. Put him up against his peer WRs from the era he played. I have.

 

[upstater1]

Seymour definitely deserves the hall of fame, but he is that tier that needs to wait for a few years, like John Lynch did. Besides Law, Brady, Seymour and Adam, there really weren’t guys in that first dynasty who are obvious hall of famers, so i don’t really see an anti-Patriots bias.

The problem is that Seymour is now waiting into his 4th year. So in terms of dynasty, you'd think they'd credit the Patriots the way they did the Steelers dynasty (10+ players). Instead, he's waiting. The only other one other than Law is Corey Dillon.

 

[nextsuperstar]

The problem is that Seymour is now waiting into his 4th year. So in terms of dynasty, you'd think they'd credit the Patriots the way they did the Steelers dynasty (10+ players). Instead, he's waiting. The only other one other than Law is Corey Dillon.

well the Patriots dynasty, due to free agency was built in part on short contracts for veterans. If you include those guys, the Patriots also have Moss and Seau (granted they did not win rings). Soon they will also have Revis.

 

[captain stone]

Bruce Armstrong. Sometimes, it seems like every LT who played in multiple Pro Bowls gets inducted, but Armstrong never gets mentioned. Played Bruce Smith twice a year and always played him tough. I’ve given up on the NFL HOF. It’s just a popularity contest, and Patriot players just aren’t popular with pro football writers.

Damn shame he didn't stick around for 2001 so he could've retired a Champion, as a backup/mentor to Matt Light.

Arguably (maybe) the Pats Best LT, ever.

 

[Pape]

There is so much to disagree with here that I don't even know where to begin.

Stanley Morgan, Houston Antwine, Ben Coates, Geno Cappelletti, Bruce Armstrong are nowhere near hall of fame players. Morgan had 4 big years but never eclipsed 60 catches, 900 yards or 5 TDs during any other season. Antwine had a nice run but didn't even make the all-AFL second team. Same can be said for Geno, who was a nifty player who would have fit in nicely with the modern version of the team, but not much more than that. Coates peak lasted about 5 years. His stats during 4 of those years were fairly modest, and, lets be real, Shannon Sharpe was the dominant TE of the 90's. Armstrong was a very good tackle but his career overlapped some of the best to ever play the game, and if Tony Boseli can't get in, Armstrong doesn't belong.

And there is no Ron Borges conspiracy (and by the way, when did Ron Borges enter the conversation? Did I wake up and it's 2003 again?). Seymour is not in yet because there were other deserving players who have waited longer. Lynch and Faneca have been waiting forever and deserve their enshrinement. Seymour will get his turn.

And the baseball HOF being the only credible hall of fame? Harold Baines has something to say about that. The baseball HOF cannot even get any players elected despite the most prolific batter and pitcher of the past 80 years sitting on that ballot. The writers can go ahead and keep fussing over character while they polish that Ty Cobb plaque.

Hard to take your comments about Gino seriously when you don't even bother to spell his name correctly.

Gino did it all. His numbers as a kicker and receiver dot the top five across the full ten years of the AFL.

Those accomplishments were given short shrift considering how well he performed vis a vis his peers during the same time frame.

 

[captain stone]

There is so much to disagree with here that I don't even know where to begin.

Stanley Morgan, Houston Antwine, Ben Coates, Geno Cappelletti, Bruce Armstrong are nowhere near hall of fame players. Morgan had 4 big years but never eclipsed 60 catches, 900 yards or 5 TDs during any other season. Antwine had a nice run but didn't even make the all-AFL second team. Same can be said for Geno, who was a nifty player who would have fit in nicely with the modern version of the team, but not much more than that. Coates peak lasted about 5 years. His stats during 4 of those years were fairly modest, and, lets be real, Shannon Sharpe was the dominant TE of the 90's. Armstrong was a very good tackle but his career overlapped some of the best to ever play the game, and if Tony Boseli can't get in, Armstrong doesn't belong.

And there is no Ron Borges conspiracy (and by the way, when did Ron Borges enter the conversation? Did I wake up and it's 2003 again?). Seymour is not in yet because there were other deserving players who have waited longer. Lynch and Faneca have been waiting forever and deserve their enshrinement. Seymour will get his turn.

And the baseball HOF being the only credible hall of fame? Harold Baines has something to say about that. The baseball HOF cannot even get any players elected despite the most prolific batter and pitcher of the past 80 years sitting on that ballot. The writers can go ahead and keep fussing over character while they polish that Ty Cobb plaque.

I disagree with Every paragraph in this post.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Yes.

Though I would fear Borges would somehow be replaced by somebody who either loves the Sox to the point they hate the Pats (Shaughnessy, Mazz, Tomase) or a media contrarian such as Felger.

The responsibility of representing the Patriots belongs to someone like Reiss, Price or Holley.

John Tomase's Big Lie

When you hear that the New England Patriots taped practices, do you realize it is not true? John Tomase made it up. So why does the myth persist?

thetomaselie.com

Ron Borges: “Houston Antwine was the kind of football player you don’t forget if you ever saw him, but he’s the kind few remember today because he did his playing before ESPN highlight shows existed. If they had, ‘Twine would have been a staple because he was everything you wanted in a defensive tackle — Warren Sapp before there was a Warren Sapp, but without the need for volume control.”

Houston's is a typically glorious, unappreciated and sad story we're accustomed to as Patriots fans. Unless somebody with a very loud voice/media megaphone shows up, our heroes will remain in obscurity.

Remembering Patriot DT Houston Antwine

Houston Antwine was born on April 11, 1939. He was one of the best players in football history that is not in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Antwine is also the greatest player in Patriot history that most Pats fans don't know about.

www.patsfans.com

 

[Steve102]

I am wondering if there is Patriot fatigue among voters.

 

[Pape]

I am wondering if there is Patriot fatigue among voters.

How could there be? They have literally let just 1 Patriot in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Steve102]

How could there be? They have literally let just 1 Patriot in the Hall of Fame.

Sick of the Pats. There's never been a 20 year run in the Super Bowl era.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

There is so much to disagree with here that I don't even know where to begin.

Stanley Morgan, Houston Antwine, Ben Coates, Geno Cappelletti, Bruce Armstrong are nowhere near hall of fame players. Morgan had 4 big years but never eclipsed 60 catches, 900 yards or 5 TDs during any other season. Antwine had a nice run but didn't even make the all-AFL second team. Same can be said for Geno, who was a nifty player who would have fit in nicely with the modern version of the team, but not much more than that. Coates peak lasted about 5 years. His stats during 4 of those years were fairly modest, and, lets be real, Shannon Sharpe was the dominant TE of the 90's. Armstrong was a very good tackle but his career overlapped some of the best to ever play the game, and if Tony Boseli can't get in, Armstrong doesn't belong.

And there is no Ron Borges conspiracy (and by the way, when did Ron Borges enter the conversation? Did I wake up and it's 2003 again?). Seymour is not in yet because there were other deserving players who have waited longer. Lynch and Faneca have been waiting forever and deserve their enshrinement. Seymour will get his turn.

And the baseball HOF being the only credible hall of fame? Harold Baines has something to say about that. The baseball HOF cannot even get any players elected despite the most prolific batter and pitcher of the past 80 years sitting on that ballot. The writers can go ahead and keep fussing over character while they polish that Ty Cobb plaque.

Hard to take your comments about Gino seriously when you don't even bother to spell his name correctly.

Gino did it all. His numbers as a kicker and receiver dot the top five across the full ten years of the AFL.

Those accomplishments were given short shrift considering how well he performed vis a vis his peers during the same time frame.

I disagree with Every paragraph in this post.

Let's take a look at the facts and perhaps it will shed some light on the topic. Ready?

Coates' stats are indeed not as prolific as Sharpe's. Nor is any garbage spewing from his mouth. Cool.

.........................Russ Francis.........................Dave Casper(HOF)

Rec..................393..........................................378
Yards..............5,262.......................................5,216
TD...................40.............................................52

Casper got the SB ring Russ should have got in '76. I'd take Francis every time.


____________________Tony Boselli______________Bruce Armstrong

Pro Bowl___________5_________________________6
1st Team All Pro___3_________________________0
2nd Team All Pro__0_________________________3

Doesn't look like a blowout.


Just a quick review of Gino Cappelletti's accomplishments:

Cappelletti won AFL MVP honors in 1964, led the league in scoring five times and was a five-time AFL All-Star. He holds the professional football record for points per game over a six-year period (9.5), points per game over an 11-year period (7.5) and percentage of his team's total points over an eight-year period (34%). One of 20 AFL players active during the entirety of the league's ten-year existence, Cappelletti was also among just three players who played in every one of his team's AFL games. He played with the Patriots all 11 years in Boston, from 1960 through the 1970 NFL merger season, and retired in late August 1971 at age 37; he was the AFL's all-time leading scorer with 1,130 points (42 TDs, 176 FGs and 342 PATs) and among the AFL's top ten all-time receivers in yards and in receptions. Cappelletti had two of the top five scoring seasons in pro football history, with 155 points in 1964 and 147 points in 1961 (14-game seasons). His Patriots team scoring record lasted for 41 years until it was broken by Adam Vinatieri on December 5, 2005. Despite playing in a far less pass-friendly era, Cappelletti remains the Patriots' 12th all-time leading receiver (8th among WRs) in receptions with 292 catches and 10th in receiving yards (8th among WRs) with 4,589 yards. He still ranks 5th in Patriots history among all players with 42 receiving touchdowns and has the most field goal attempts (334) in team history.

Sorry, I need a minute to catch my breath...

During Cappelletti's pro career, he also returned punts and kickoffs, played defensive back and even had one pass completion for a touchdown. Cappelletti was just the second AFL player to record three interceptions (of Tom Flores) in a regular-season game, holds the professional football record for most touchdowns in Saturday games (10), scored 18 points or more in a game ten times and scored 20 or more points in a game eight times. He set the AFL single-game record by scoring 28 points in the Patriots' 42–14 rout of Houston on December 18, 1965. Cappelletti is the only player in professional football history to run for a two-point conversion, throw for a two-point conversion, catch a pass, intercept a pass, return a punt and return a kickoff in the same season. He kicked six field goals (without a miss) in a 39–10 win at Denver on October 4, 1964, and became one of only two AFL kickers with at least four field goals per game for three consecutive games. Cappelletti kicked the longest field goal in the AFL in consecutive seasons and led the AFL in field-goal percentage in 1965.

Didn't mean to take up too much of your time. Moving on...


____________________Stanley Morgan_________Lynn Swann(HOF)______________John Stallworth(HOF)

Receptions________557______________________336_____________________________537
Yards______________10,716___________________5,462___________________________8,723
TD_________________72_______________________51______________________________63
Pro Bowl___________4________________________3_______________________________3
All Pro______________2________________________1_______________________________1

I'm interested in any explanation for Steamer's - and the rest for that matter - exclusion...besides the obvious anti-Patriots bias.


_______________________Houston Antwine_________________Buck Buchanan(HOF)_____________

AFL All-Star___________6__________________________________6__________________________________
1st Team All-AFL______1__________________________________6__________________________________
2nd Team All-AFL_____5__________________________________0__________________________________
Sacks(unofficial)______39_________________________________unknown__________________________

Houston is on the First Team AFL All-Time Team. Buck is on the Second Team.