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PATRIOTS TRAINING CAMP Day 3 and 4 Training Camp Thread-Friday July 30th & Sat 31st

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Deus Irae

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What I don’t understand is not fully and completely supporting Cam should the coaching staff determine he’s the starting QB. There are people who legitimately don’t like Cam and actively disparage and root against him. Why?

Because they saw him play over the course of the past 5 seasons. You may, or may not, prefer to pretend that the coaching/management side of the team is infallible, but most people prefer to live in the real world. And. in the real world, this is Cam Newton since his MVP season:

1627841199147.png

Cam Newton Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com
 

jdlboot14

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
It means he isn't going to keep Cam as the starter because he's 'stubborn'.
If you think BB does everything with saintly motives and pure intentions, then you are swallowing the cool-aid. I love and appreciate BB as much as any Pats fan, but he does have a vindictive and stubborn underbelly. Everyone has an ego. And the mantra "best for the football team" works at the podium, but is not always accurate. Exhibit A - benching Butler in a SB that would have created 3 straight (when Rowe was getting torched every play). Point is: BB is as old school as they come, earning your due and humble pie is essential to his philosophy. So yes, he would most certainly keep Cam as the starter for a month or more even if Josh & Co. say that Mac could run their offense as well - for the long term sake of Mac and the team.
 

PatsFanInVa

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Because they saw him play over the course of the past 5 seasons. You may, or may not, prefer to pretend that the coaching/management side of the team is infallible, but most people prefer to live in the real world. And. in the real world, this is Cam Newton since his MVP season:

View attachment 34343

Cam Newton Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com
And that's doing him the huge favor of not assuming much of a permanent decline in 20. Hey there is a possibility that it's all down to COVID, the new system, and the dearth of weapons. But can he come back big with medium weapons? I mean, once an nfl defense is covering them, and trying to rush him, real-time?

We don't know, and as I think you're saying in your post, we can root for Cam conditionally without claiming to know facts not in evidence.

What I don't get is insisting that everybody pretend real hard that he's good when he's not anymore. It is fine if he is our best option (especially if his '21 is a big improvement, and god knows there is room for that). But that's a story yet to be written, not a default story already written unless proven wrong.
 

jdlboot14

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
the situation is this - when will Cam play himself out of the starting job?
BB doesn't want to give Mac anything. But when the vets and leaders see Mac performing in practice, and once Cam blows enough big moments, they're going to want to give the kid a chance. That's how BB doesn't loose respect or loose the locker room, or set Mac up for failure and to be resented by Cam-loyalists.
 

PatsFanInVa

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the situation is this - when will Cam play himself out of the starting job?
BB doesn't want to give Mac anything. But when the vets and leaders see Mac performing in practice, and once Cam blows enough big moments, they're going to want to give the kid a chance. That's how BB doesn't loose respect or loose the locker room, or set Mac up for failure and to be resented by Cam-loyalists.
Because then this team would hate its coach.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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It was a post bemoaning the fact Cam might start. Mac is rather clearly the better QB to run the Patriots’ offense IMO. If he gives the team the better opportunity to win, he’ll start. I understand that perspective and share it.
It was a post that first provided information, as he said he knows someone in the org.

What I don’t understand is not fully and completely supporting Cam should the coaching staff determine he’s the starting QB. There are people who legitimately don’t like Cam and actively disparage and root against him. Why?
He was disappointed that Mac hasn’t surpassed Cam. Why wouldn’t he be? Cam is a bridge/stopgap starter, confirmed by his ice cold free agent market and that they used a first round pick. We know what Cam is…he isn’t the answer. He‘s a good bargain backup/spot starter.

Many fans don’t love the idea of watching a washed, bottom ranked starter with little upside quarterbacking the team and are excited to see the 1st first round QB in 27 years.

I don’t see what the big deal is…are you sure you’re not reaching to find non-football fan bias about Cam? This would be the same for every team. Every race. Do you really think Bears fans are hoping to hear Andy Dalton is winning the starting job over Justin Fields, because Fields didn’t outclass him? Similar situation here.

I trust Belichick to make the correct decision. I won’t actively root against players on the team I support, and I won’t assume the coach will make the wrong decision (or be upset if the coach starts the player my layman’s gut feeling tells me isn’t the best option).
You’re welcome to do that yourself. Though Patriots fandom isn’t measured by one’s faith in Bill…and you’ve used this same reasoning to justify every poor decision Bill has made the last few years without even arguing on the decision’s merit itself. “I trust Bill will make the right decision” is fine in itself if that’s your thing - but it ‘s such a weak way to disparage someone else’s viewpoint. No one here thinks they’re smarter than Bill Belichick about personnel decisions. It doesn’t mean Bill has no blind spots either.
 
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Deus Irae

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And that's doing him the huge favor of not assuming much of a permanent decline in 20. Hey there is a possibility that it's all down to COVID, the new system, and the dearth of weapons. But can he come back big with medium weapons? I mean, once an nfl defense is covering them, and trying to rush him, real-time?

We don't know, and as I think you're saying in your post, we can root for Cam conditionally without claiming to know facts not in evidence.

What I don't get is insisting that everybody pretend real hard that he's good when he's not anymore. It is fine if he is our best option (especially if his '21 is a big improvement, and god knows there is room for that). But that's a story yet to be written, not a default story already written unless proven wrong.
I definitely gave Newton the benefit of a bunch of doubts. Here's that same time period, except by year:

1627846158403.png
1627846189925.png

And here's what you get for the two years before his time lost to injury, and then for the two years after that time:

1627846393024.png

1627846427523.png

So it's not as if the people with serious concerns about Newton don't have most of recent history on their side, and it's not as if the Newton honks can point to the surgery as some demarcation point that more "healing" can overcome.
 

Ring 6

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If you think BB does everything with saintly motives and pure intentions, then you are swallowing the cool-aid. I love and appreciate BB as much as any Pats fan, but he does have a vindictive and stubborn underbelly. Everyone has an ego. And the mantra "best for the football team" works at the podium, but is not always accurate. Exhibit A - benching Butler in a SB that would have created 3 straight (when Rowe was getting torched every play). Point is: BB is as old school as they come, earning your due and humble pie is essential to his philosophy. So yes, he would most certainly keep Cam as the starter for a month or more even if Josh & Co. say that Mac could run their offense as well - for the long term sake of Mac and the team.
His version of best for the team and yours may differ. That doesn’t mean he isn’t doing what’s best for the team.
 

Ring 6

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Imagine being depressed at the prospect of the NFL team you (allegedly) support starting/playing the QB they feel gives the team the best opportunity to win.

Friggin’ depressing, right?
I don’t think you understand the depression but it is real. If after watching Newton in 2020, we go through another season where he’s the best we’ve got, that is incredibly depressing both in terms of our chance for success as well as the prospects for our 1st round Qb, who wouldn’t be able to exceed a very low bar.
You seem to think that it’s personal but I know of no fans who care more about the person than the performance. Every fan hopes every bad player loses his job because it makes the team better.
 

amfootball

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I don’t think you understand the depression but it is real. If after watching Newton in 2020, we go through another season where he’s the best we’ve got, that is incredibly depressing both in terms of our chance for success as well as the prospects for our 1st round Qb, who wouldn’t be able to exceed a very low bar.
You seem to think that it’s personal but I know of no fans who care more about the person than the performance. Every fan hopes every bad player loses his job because it makes the team better.
Exactly. None of us wants to watch that again. I want this to be Mac's team as soon as possible. I just hope Bill is not so stubborn and committed to Cam that we waste another season.
 

rochrist

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If you think BB does everything with saintly motives and pure intentions, then you are swallowing the cool-aid. I love and appreciate BB as much as any Pats fan, but he does have a vindictive and stubborn underbelly. Everyone has an ego. And the mantra "best for the football team" works at the podium, but is not always accurate. Exhibit A - benching Butler in a SB that would have created 3 straight (when Rowe was getting torched every play). Point is: BB is as old school as they come, earning your due and humble pie is essential to his philosophy. So yes, he would most certainly keep Cam as the starter for a month or more even if Josh & Co. say that Mac could run their offense as well - for the long term sake of Mac and the team.
Claiming that Butler playing would have made the difference is assuming facts not in evidence, particularly given reporting done after the fact that show he was atrocious in practice all week leading up to the game. Not to mention that he'd been pretty bad all season.
 

PatsWSB47

Pro Bowl Player
Claiming that Butler playing would have made the difference is assuming facts not in evidence, particularly given reporting done after the fact that show he was atrocious in practice all week leading up to the game. Not to mention that he'd been pretty bad all season.
The Patriots hardly could have been any worse defensively in that game if they put me in for Butler.
 

Vindicate

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I'd like to read more reports on the perceived leadership quality of Mac Jones. I argued last year that the decision to keep Cam as the starter and not give many reps to Stidham was because Belichick saw the value of Cam's leadership much higher than the value of Stidham's play (which Belichick later confirmed.) I think a big factor in how quickly we'll see Jones assume the starting role will be partly (not entirely) contingent on his ability to be seen as a "leader."
 

amfootball

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Claiming that Butler playing would have made the difference is assuming facts not in evidence, particularly given reporting done after the fact that show he was atrocious in practice all week leading up to the game. Not to mention that he'd been pretty bad all season.
Bademosi and Richards were better? We watched the game. Benching him was one thing, to stay with Bademosi and Richards was absurd.
 

Vindicate

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Claiming that Butler playing would have made the difference is assuming facts not in evidence, particularly given reporting done after the fact that show he was atrocious in practice all week leading up to the game. Not to mention that he'd been pretty bad all season.

But that still begs the question of: why didn't Belichick give Butler a shot at all. It's pretty easy to see that, because of the benching of Butler, the secondary was suddenly shifted into matchup competition they couldn't handle. While you are right, that we cannot claim that putting Butler in would have made everything better, it still begs the question of "well why the hell didn't we try."

It's the Superbowl. Not the best time to die on a hill and not try something out. It honestly couldn't have really gotten any worse. Not trying to go off on a tangent though, this is a training camp thread.
 

Deus Irae

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Claiming that Butler playing would have made the difference is assuming facts not in evidence, particularly given reporting done after the fact that show he was atrocious in practice all week leading up to the game. Not to mention that he'd been pretty bad all season.
You're basically saying that the team's choice to play almost 100% of the snaps all season (97.83%) was JAG on the squad, but never got the yank until the most important time of the season. If that were actually the case, you should have been calling for the firing of Belichick from that moment forward.

Either that, or your take is godawful. Your choice.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Butler wasn't changing the collective of that game but don't tell me the guy that's been involved in some of the biggest moments in NFL history couldn't have made a few plays to shift the balance in a close game. Not to mention the trickle down effect of the secondary. Players heads in the biggest game of the season.

I'm sorry but pretending that wasn't a big deal or Butler playing wouldn't have made a few plays is bonkers.
 
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