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Daily Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread - 4/6

Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by italian pat patriot, Apr 6, 2020.

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  1. dreighver

    dreighver PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They are welcome to treat their patients based on anecdote, and despite objective proof via a clinical trial - that is their prerogative. It doesn't necessarily make them right.

    And again, it's worth noting that *no one* is arguing that hydroxycholoroquine does not effectively treat COVID; we are arguing that there is no causal efficacy established yet, and therefore the most impactful person in the world stating that it's a fantastic treatment is irresponsible and inaccurate until further evidence is gathered.

    There is a difference between, "hey, I'm dying from COVID and my options are limited, what the hell, let's try hydroxychloroquine and possibly it helps" and "hydroxychloroquine is a proven effective treatment of COVID". Two very different statements.

    And to be clear, I don't think if a patient wants to try hydroxychloroquine that they are necessarily wrong - I have a hard time denying dying people the right to try medicine that may help them live them despite a lack of objective/proven evidence.

    To give some context, I am all about alternative medicine, naturopathy, herbal medicine, so on ... but I am all about that *for myself*, and not others. I don't pretend that these medicines/supplements I take are objectively proven effective at treating anything ... that doesn't mean they don't work, but it means that there is not anything beyond anecdotal evidence that they work. I take advantage of my right to control what goes into my body, but I would not tell others that these alternative medicines I take are "proven" effective, nor would I prescribe these medicines in lieu of proven effective treatments.

    The concerns here are: 1.) hydroxychloroquine might not actually treat COVID effectively | 2.) it could have unintended side effects that are harmful and not fully understood | 3.) it could deprive individuals who need hydroxychloroquine (for ailments for which hydroxychloroquine's efficacy is proven) their ability to use it.

    So long as people who need hydroxychloroquine are not being deprived of their access, then I have no issue with it being used. But I do have an issue with it being touted as an effective treatment by POTUS when there is not objective evidence that it is an effective treatment.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  2. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oh, please. Fox News invented what you are complaining about. They rarely covered President Obama's announcements, and would often play some half baked or entirely made up story about something inconsequential and make a big dramatic deal out of it, right when POTUS was trying to get the country's attention on something. You could set your watch by their regularity on this.
     
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  3. lancerman

    lancerman In the Starting Line-Up

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    Fox need habitually misinforms and there is data to back it up. It’s owner is currently stockpiling lawyers because of the liability caused by parroting Trump’s dangerous no selling of the coronavirus.

    And no some people are actual willful idiots who want to believe that crap to the peril of the rest of us. So I can’t just let it slide.

    CNN and MSNBC are biased and sympathetic to one side. Fox is dangerous propaganda
     
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  4. XLIX

    XLIX Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    You'd be amazed at how many people got upset when the federal government closed travel from China.
     
  5. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Burn it all down! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Steak-Umm 1, You-Know-Who 0
     
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  6. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Amazingly, the president started talking even before settling on a specific "treatment" about how he's going to have "right to try on steroids" or words to that effect, foisted on us society wide.

    wait what?

    Right to try means that if I've got cancer and somebody's got a mysterious laetrile brew and a lot of unsubstantiated claims, but I believe your claims because they look substantiated to me, or substantiated enough because "what the hell do I have to lose," then I am free to spend whatevvvvvvver I want on whatevvvvver you're selling.

    Spending enormous government resources, beginning with the extremely valuable podium time, pimping for a would be cure with no actual clinical evidence, is reversing the logic of "right to try" legislation (which, N.B., is already controversial enough.)

    It's saying if the state wants to try something on you, once you can't actually say yea or nay for whatever reason, or because nobody asked you, that's fiiiiiine.

    COVID-19 patients have to be among the most vulnerable populations you can imagine, rights-wise. Any patient advocate is scared to enter the hospital they're in. Most of the society is already in "... you gotta break some eggs" territory. You might be in an induced coma. You are likely intubated, so you're unable to speak on your own behalf.

    And meanwhile, we have a guy on a stage every night, hosting infomercials for a few favorite companies, and a few favorite unproven "miracle treatments" or "miracle cures."

    Trump is not a doctor. What he can do is 2 things, smell fear and monetize the panic in a herd. It appears that he smells it and he's monetizing it. I will be interested to read the books on this period of history, if I survive long enough :D
     
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  7. Jlaff

    Jlaff Early Bird Specials PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly Picks Winner

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    I didn't see the article indicate whether Spanish doctors were reserving the treatment for terminal patients.
     
  8. patman12

    patman12 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    And I would bet a good portion of those MDs are using the protocol for 2 very unscientific reasons - pressure from the public and desperation. And if you don't think pressure works, I'll direct you to the over prescribing of antibiotics in the US to treat non-bacterial related conditions like the common cold, seasonal allergies and viral pneumonia just to quell patient fears.

    And please keep in mind that in normal times, treating MDs rely on data from research scientists to guide them in risk/benefit drug profiles. Those simply don't exist for cover-19 so the treating docs are left to rely on anecdotal reports to aid in decision making.
     
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  9. XLIX

    XLIX Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    You're making stuff up and hoping no one calls you out on it. The scientific community widely accepts that the placebo effect is real and it helps some people. Things like pain management, blood pressure and fatigue have seen positive reactions by real life scientists based simply on the placebo effect.
     
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  10. fnordcircle

    fnordcircle The poster who James White said inspires him. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, I'm loving being stuck at home and the chance of dying while drowning in my own pink lung foam.

    The article I cited, from a right-leaning publication no less, shows that people who got placebos did better than people who got the President's gut drug.

     
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  11. XLIX

    XLIX Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    It wasn't Fox that told us that $500 million divided amongst all Americans would results in over $1 million per person.

    As for the rest: tl;dr
     
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  12. Jangles

    Jangles PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He should work for CNN
     
  13. XLIX

    XLIX Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    You obviously don't understand the concept of statistical significance, but I can safely guarantee the 87% and 93% numbers are within each others' confidence intervals.
     
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  14. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Burn it all down! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Would be realllllly interesting to know who controls those companies...


    And relatedly, this thread.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  15. fnordcircle

    fnordcircle The poster who James White said inspires him. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sorry for giving you inconvenient data about placebos outperforming a drug recommended by a reality star.
     
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  16. Jangles

    Jangles PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Who is Cate Eland and why should I give a wet fart about what she has to say about anything
     
  17. fnordcircle

    fnordcircle The poster who James White said inspires him. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So our federal taxes are funding equipment being flown on federally-owned planes and then the stock is transferred to private companies where our state taxes are used to try to buy them.

    So glad we finally have a businessman in place to streamline the government!
     
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  18. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Burn it all down! PatsFans.com Supporter

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  19. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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