PatsFans.com - Mobile
PatsFans.com
Search

Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner): Transgender girls competing in girls sports is unfair

2021 Patriots Season:
Upcoming Opponent:
Next Up: vs Dolphins
Pick Results: MIA: 0% at NE: 0%

Sun
Sep 12th

Current Patriots Twitter Feed:

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
The second point is also very important in any athletic league, including scholastic leagues.

People have been excluded before for circumstances beyond their control. An example, I tried out for the wrestling team, but I was so naturally big and strong that I was above the biggest weight class normally competing in my little backwoods scholastic league. No one was big enough and strong enough to take me on, they tried to get an exception to get me into the biggest weight class they had and people said no because they didn't want their wrestlers getting hurt.

So because I was a physical freak, I didn't get to compete.

So you'll forgive me if I don't necessarily feel incredible sympathy for TG students who made a choice that took them out of the compeittion. If it's part of the price they paid for their own mental health they should accept that as something that goes with the package. That's the fate of us square pegs.


I know some people like you.......they're the ones who say things like "college for my kid? bah.......I never went and look at me"
 

Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
the DNA dictates 'gender fluidity' ... and not just with trans
Not arguing that. Try actually reading what I wronte. The problem is that we can't actually turn a physical male into an actual female. The best we can do is make a male look like a female and give injections of female hormones. That's what I mean by imitate.
 

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
How many sports involve none of the following: Raw strength, quick-twitch strength, speed, stamina, endurance, reflexes

Because testosterone and other male hormones give advantages in all of these categories

stamina and endurance? what it takes to birth a child would kill a male
 

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Not arguing that. Try actually reading what I wronte. The problem is that we can't actually turn a physical male into an actual female. The best we can do is make a male look like a female and give injections of female hormones. That's what I mean by imitate.

people get too caught up in binaries.......it's not really about that though and we all know it.......the same people were making the same arguments years back when it came to putting in gender-neutral bathroom.....people flipped out even though it did not negatively affect anyone
 

Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
stamina and endurance? what it takes to birth a child would kill a male
And when they're nationwide competitive childbearing competitions your point might actually be relevant.

Not that transgender females could compete in those either because they AREN'T. FULLY. FEMALE. If they were we wouldn't have to have these conversations because there wouldn't BE an obvious physical difference between a cisfem and a transfem.
 

Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
people get too caught up in binaries.......it's not really about that though and we all know it.......the same people were making the same arguments years back when it came to putting in gender-neutral bathroom.....people flipped out even though it did not negatively affect anyone
The problem is that transgender females range from surgically altered and hormally adjusted to literal "dude in a dress." We can't treat the whole spectrum like biofems because they simply aren't. So what's do be done with them? Treated with respect, obviously, but beyond that? It's a question that needs some deep thought.

The question of where to draw the line to ensure fair competition and proper use of Title IX funds is a reasonable one. I don't really care where you draw the line, it's not my line. I do care that an honest conversation is had, and people like you seem to be absolutely bound and determined not to have it.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Tennis and marathon? If you look at the times for elite men vs women in marathon it's not even close. And in tennis the average serve for men is 110-120 mph vs women is 85 - 95 mph in their respective tours. And if you watch tennis the men just hit it harder and they're faster on the court.

Biologically born men will always have an advantage if the competition involves strength and speed.

I would say skeet shooting or curling or a sport where it's all technique and don't rely on any physicality.
Curling is a good one.
 

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
And when they're nationwide competitive childbearing competitions your point might actually be relevant.

Not that transgender females could compete in those either because they AREN'T. FULLY. FEMALE. If they were we wouldn't have to have these conversations because there wouldn't BE an obvious difference between a cisfem and a transfem.

yup.....no day would be complete without shutting someone out of something......poor guy, they should have let you wrestle
 

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
The problem is that transgender females range from surgically altered and hormally adjusted to literal "dude in a dress."

The question of where to draw the line to ensure fair competition and proper use of Title IX funds is a reasonable one. I don't really care where you draw the line, it's not my line. I do care that an honest conversation is had, and people like you seem to be absolutely bound and determined not to have it.

I'm comfortable with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness........it's why I didn't put up a fight when my kid stopped swimming, because once something like that is broken, you don't want to be around those people and there are a million other things to do in this world.

I can guarantee you, however, that my kid will not ever say 'I didn't get what I wanted, so eff them' .... we leave that to people like you
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Again, not in absolutes and you specifically said your frame of reference was the absolute value “all males” not “all males minus a subset”.
Seriously? You had to wonder if by all I was included people with debilitating diseases? Ok sounds like you are arguing just to argue
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
Let’s not act like high school sports competitions are level to begin with. Kids are all over the map with height, weight, and skills, so it’s largely a **** show to begin with. And then you have kids moving to a district, sometimes not even really living there, to stack a team. Why do I bet there will be a hell of a lot more outrage when a local star TG softball pitcher makes the national news than when a National Player of the Year basketball star is caught receiving cash from alma mater boosters?
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
I
The second point is also very important in any athletic league, including scholastic leagues.

People have been excluded before for circumstances beyond their control. An example, I tried out for the wrestling team, but I was so naturally big and strong that I was above the biggest weight class normally competing in my little backwoods scholastic league. No one was big enough and strong enough to take me on, they tried to get an exception to get me into the biggest weight class they had and people said no because they didn't want their wrestlers getting hurt.

So because I was a physical freak, I didn't get to compete.

So you'll forgive me if I don't necessarily feel incredible sympathy for TG students who made a choice that took them out of the compeittion. Because I didn't GET a choice.

And I get it, it's not really a choice if mental health is on the line but still, I'd say the point still stands. If it's part of the price they paid for their own mental health they should accept that as something that goes with the package. That's the fate of us square pegs.

I’m sorry to hear that.

It is consistent with the values of public school athletics, though. Safety is more important. Perhaps they should have given you an accolade on account of having no challengers.

In terms of TGs, I think this will end up a constitutional issue and one that they’ll win, only a matter of when. Schools must provide equal access as much as possible; fair competition is not a constitutional issue. Unless taxpayers want to add on 12 new leagues for gender categories, they’ll have to merge TGs with M/F. And it won’t be a big deal, despite the upcoming cry fest.
 

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Let’s not act like high school sports competitions are level to begin with. Kids are all over the map with height, weight, and skills, so it’s largely a **** show to begin with. And then you have kids moving to a district, sometimes not even really living there, to stack a team. Why do I bet there will be a hell of a lot more outrage when a local star TG softball pitcher makes the national news than when a National Player of the Year basketball star is caught receiving cash from alma mater boosters?


people are stuck on those days when men were men and the sheep ran scared
 

fightingirish595

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
How many sports involve none of the following: Raw strength, quick-twitch strength, speed, stamina, endurance, reflexes

Because testosterone and other male hormones give advantages in all of these categories
Long distance running requires endurance. Evidence suggests trans females are at no advantage in that sport. Gymnastics they may be at a disadvantage because of height.
 

fightingirish595

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
And this is where the question gets asked: What’s the higher priority?

1. Ensuring that every athlete has a place on a team (meaning TGs on boys or girls teams), since as a public institution schools are supposed to provide equal opportunity.

2. Ensuring that public school competition is a fair and level playing field in athletic competitions.

I’m pretty sure that the first point will win out here, which is why I think public schools and Olympics/professional sports are two different debates.

number 2
 

fightingirish595

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Trans women are still biologically born males and still have the bone density and muscle mass advantage over biologically born females even after years of hormone treatment --

A September 2019 study from the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm found that a year of hormone therapy decreased muscle mass in transgender women only modestly.[24]

Even after 24 months of testosterone suppression, bone mass may be preserved over 12 years.[25] Further, no study has reported muscle loss greater than 12% with testosterones suppression even after 3 years of hormone therapy. Males have approximately 40% greater muscle mass than females, so even with testosterone suppression, transgender women athletes have a muscle mass advantage over females. This is evidenced by transgender women being in the top 10% of females regarding lean body mass and possessing a grip 25% stronger than most females.
[25]

24 - Muscle Strength, Size, and Composition Following 12 Months of Gender-affirming Treatment in Transgender Individuals
25 - Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage
Sure and that’s why they shouldn’t be allowed to participate in some sports where those advantages aren’t mitigated
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
By the way, how come no one gives a crap when stories come out about girls playing on the boys varsity hockey team as the goalie or boys football team as a kicker? Obviously whatever specific advantages those girls have over the boy goalies are biological.
 

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
And this is where the question gets asked: What’s the higher priority?

1. Ensuring that every athlete has a place on a team (meaning TGs on boys or girls teams), since as a public institution schools are supposed to provide equal opportunity.

2. Ensuring that public school competition is a fair and level playing field in athletic competitions.

I’m pretty sure that the first point will win out here, which is why I think public schools and Olympics/professional sports are two different debates.

this falls under 'there is no easy answer' .... going back to comments made by @Simpelton suggest the same reason that divides us on many topics.......geographic demographics and side effects......he was let down because a more sparsely populated area is much more limited in what it has to offer people of developmental age. This gets turned into every form of anger/envy/disenchantment that you can think of. A TG will blend in much more in a more highly populated and competitive area because there's just more of everything. The more sparsely populated areas have other things to offer but not necessarily what the competitive person needs to thrive. Opinions are all over the place because experiences are all over the place. My perspective is that I've been excluded and discriminated against so I know how it feels and I know that I could never take up a perspective that could contribute to someone else feeling that way.
 

Top