PatsFans.com - Mobile
PatsFans.com
Search

Because hyperbole is mind-numbing when it becomes "truth"...

2021 Patriots Season:
Upcoming Opponent:
Next Up: at Bills
Pick Results: NE: 0% at BUF: 0%

Mon
Dec 6th

Current Patriots Twitter Feed:

Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
But they didn’t play the same number of plays. And they didn’t BECAUSE OF HOW THEY PLAYED.
Are you honestly telling me that you would rather have your defense stay on the field for 100 plays and give up 30 points than stay on the field 80 plays and give up 25 because it’s fewer points per play?
You are arguing that giving up long time consuming 15 play Td drives is better than short 6 fg drives.
7/15 = .47 points per play
3/6. =. .5 ppp

so if the second team stayed on the forks for 15 plays they give up 7.5 points. They didn’t. Because they got off the field.

I must not be explaining myself well so I'll give it one more try. Running the ball keeps the clock moving in between plays. Teams that run the ball more have fewer plays in the game because the clock is moving more often than not. Teams that can't stop the run, have the ball run ON them more, which keeps the clock moving more often than not. This results in fewer plays per game, regardless of what the defense is doing on the field. I watched a fair number of Bucs games and all Patriots games. The extra plays in the Bucs games were not a result of the defense not stopping anyone, they were the result of there being a higher percentage of pass plays from both sides.

Tampa threw the ball 626 times and ran the ball 369 times (62.9%)

New England threw the ball 440 times and ran the ball 502 times (46.7%)

And before you argue that Tom Brady would keep the clock moving more because he completes more passes, his completion percentage was actually .1% lower than Cam's, so that's a wash in regards to keeping the clock moving.

On defense, the Bucs were passed on 617 times and run on 358 times (63.3%)

The Patriots were passed on 494 times and run on 464 times (51.6%)

The games these two teams played were just completely different tempos. Night and day really. If you look at those numbers above they're on opposite hemispheres when it comes to team rankings. TB is always near the top of pass attempts (for and against) and NE at the bottom for both. Which was my only argument really: That you can't just say, "same points, crappier offense" and think that that tells the whole story.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
I must not be explaining myself well so I'll give it one more try. Running the ball keeps the clock moving in between plays. Teams that run the ball more have fewer plays in the game because the clock is moving more often than not. Teams that can't stop the run, have the ball run ON them more, which keeps the clock moving more often than not. This results in fewer plays per game, regardless of what the defense is doing on the field. I watched a fair number of Bucs games and all Patriots games. The extra plays in the Bucs games were not a result of the defense not stopping anyone, they were the result of there being a higher percentage of pass plays from both sides.
[/QUOTE]
Time of possession is a function of both offense and defense.
We have an actual result and you are trying to extrapolate statistics to override what actually happened on a football field.
If I ha e a great pass defense and make you run to beat me and that means you take longer drives and there are fewer plays that is a function of the way I play defense.
The time difference because of pass or run mix is only affected by incomplete passes because the clock still runs on completed passes.
Tampa threw 4 more incomplete passes per game. That is an entirely negligible difference.
Tampa threw the ball 626 times and ran the ball 369 times (62.9%)

New England threw the ball 440 times and ran the ball 502 times (46.7%)

And before you argue that Tom Brady would keep the clock moving more because he completes more passes, his completion percentage was actually .1% lower than Cam's, so that's a wash in regards to keeping the clock moving.
See above. Brady made a difference because he kept his offense in the field and put them on the scoreboard.
On defense, the Bucs were passed on 617 times and run on 358 times (63.3%)

The Patriots were passed on 494 times and run on 464 times (51.6%)
Why would that matter? Now you are arguing that being on defense longer to allow the same number of points is somehow better.

The games these two teams played were just completely different tempos. Night and day really. If you look at those numbers above they're on opposite hemispheres when it comes to team rankings. TB is always near the top of pass attempts (for and against) and NE at the bottom for both. Which was my only argument really: That you can't just say, "same points, crappier offense" and think that that tells the whole story.
But it does. You gave twisted yourself into an extrapolation that says the number of plays it takes you to allow points means more than whether you allow them or not.

If you really want to believe that having a high functioning offense handicaps a defense and and having a crappy one is a defenses dream, go ahead, but you’ve done nothing at all to convince me of your theory.
 

Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
@Ring 6 (tagging because the reply is doing something funky with the quotes)

I've failed at explaining my view point, or you're willfully ignoring it, and I have no more interest in trying to clear this up. We disagree that the Bucs defense was worse than the Patriots in 2020, and I'm leaving it at that.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Sorry I don't like quitters
He didn’t quit, he won a SB.

I’m just not sure why you think he should be looked down upon for wanting to play somewhere else.
The fact is that what the team did to try to keep winning until he was 41 caused them to have to reset when he was 42. Why would he feel obligated to basically give up a season at 42?
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
@Ring 6 (tagging because the reply is doing something funky with the quotes)

I've failed at explaining my view point, or you're willfully ignoring it, and I have no more interest in trying to clear this up. We disagree that the Bucs defense was worse than the Patriots in 2020, and I'm leaving it at that.
I’m not willfully ignoring anything, I completely understand what you are saying and I disagree.
Ive explained in detail why I disagree. Perhaps you are willfully ignoring that?
 

MAC10

Upper Crust
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
He didn’t quit, he won a SB.

I’m just not sure why you think he should be looked down upon for wanting to play somewhere else.
The fact is that what the team did to try to keep winning until he was 41 caused them to have to reset when he was 42. Why would he feel obligated to basically give up a season at 42?

He didn’t win a SB in 2019 and quit the team because the pats didn’t have the players to his liking. he‘s a spoiled brat.
 

50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I must not be explaining myself well so I'll give it one more try. Running the ball keeps the clock moving in between plays. Teams that run the ball more have fewer plays in the game because the clock is moving more often than not. Teams that can't stop the run, have the ball run ON them more, which keeps the clock moving more often than not. This results in fewer plays per game, regardless of what the defense is doing on the field. I watched a fair number of Bucs games and all Patriots games. The extra plays in the Bucs games were not a result of the defense not stopping anyone, they were the result of there being a higher percentage of pass plays from both sides.

Tampa threw the ball 626 times and ran the ball 369 times (62.9%)

New England threw the ball 440 times and ran the ball 502 times (46.7%)

And before you argue that Tom Brady would keep the clock moving more because he completes more passes, his completion percentage was actually .1% lower than Cam's, so that's a wash in regards to keeping the clock moving.

On defense, the Bucs were passed on 617 times and run on 358 times (63.3%)

The Patriots were passed on 494 times and run on 464 times (51.6%)

The games these two teams played were just completely different tempos. Night and day really. If you look at those numbers above they're on opposite hemispheres when it comes to team rankings. TB is always near the top of pass attempts (for and against) and NE at the bottom for both. Which was my only argument really: That you can't just say, "same points, crappier offense" and think that that tells the whole story.
This reminds me of all the times the Patriots' defenses in the past suffered statistically because they'd build up leads and then go "prevent" to let the other team eat up the clock.
 

RobertWeathers

Author of the Port Huron Statement
PatsFans.com Supporter
This reminds me of all the times the Patriots' defenses in the past suffered statistically because they'd build up leads and then go "prevent" to let the other team eat up the clock.
That's exactly what happened. BB knew other offenses couldn't keep up with the 2010-2012 NEP and he also knew he didn't have stalwarts at every position on D so he played 80s Edmonton Oilers football. Tons of plays. Tons of points. Get defenses tired. On D, make offenses pick their way down the field. Hope for turnovers. Limit drives to FGs.
 

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
He didn’t win a SB in 2019 and quit the team because the pats didn’t have the players to his liking. he‘s a spoiled brat.

nahhhhh.....it was just time for everyone to move on........Brady was not going to win another SB if he stayed with the Pats.....BB was just not going to rebuild around a 43 year old QB, so the QB went somewhere where all they needed was a QB......the Pats needed much more than just a QB.

Tom Brady is gone, there is no Tom Brady
 

50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
@Ring 6 (tagging because the reply is doing something funky with the quotes)

I've failed at explaining my view point, or you're willfully ignoring it, and I have no more interest in trying to clear this up. We disagree that the Bucs defense was worse than the Patriots in 2020, and I'm leaving it at that.
The Tampa defense was far superior to the Pats last year, in my opinion. They could get pressure with 4 consistently. Their linebackers were top-notch against run and pass. When Vea came back, they were strong at all three levels against run or pass.

Four rushers made Mahomes look pedestrian. They shut down the vaunted Packers offense cold over and over again.

The defenses weren't close in quality, nor was the 2020 Pats defense nearly as good as the 2019 version, on paper or on the field.

The 2020 Pats were a team trying to figure out who among the kids were worth keeping. They were putting people all over the place to see what they could do.

Brady went 11-5 with the Bucs superior D (vastly superior when they got fully healthy at the end of the year) and with:

Evans Godwin AB Brate Gronk
vs.
Meyers, Gunner, Harry, Izzo, Asiasi

And an easier schedule. That's just the reality. (AFCE had two quality teams in Buffalo and Miami, NFCS had one in New Orleans; NFCW > NFCN; Conference standings games were a wash: Giants and Rams vs. Texans and Ravens)

The idea that Brady would have gone 11-5 with the Pats in 2020 simply floors me. (PS. Yeah, I was wrong when I said 8 playoff teams - for some reason, I thought the Dolphins had snuck in.)
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
He didn’t win a SB in 2019 and quit the team because the pats didn’t have the players to his liking. he‘s a spoiled brat.
No he was a free agent and made a decision. Why would he have an obligation to stay here?
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
The Tampa defense was far superior to the Pats last year, in my opinion. They could get pressure with 4 consistently. Their linebackers were top-notch against run and pass. When Vea came back, they were strong at all three levels against run or pass.

Four rushers made Mahomes look pedestrian. They shut down the vaunted Packers offense cold over and over again.

The defenses weren't close in quality, nor was the 2020 Pats defense nearly as good as the 2019 version, on paper or on the field.

The 2020 Pats were a team trying to figure out who among the kids were worth keeping. They were putting people all over the place to see what they could do.

Brady went 11-5 with the Bucs superior D (vastly superior when they got fully healthy at the end of the year) and with:

Evans Godwin AB Brate Gronk
vs.
Meyers, Gunner, Harry, Izzo, Asiasi

And an easier schedule. That's just the reality. (AFCE had two quality teams in Buffalo and Miami, NFCS had one in New Orleans; NFCW > NFCN; Conference standings games were a wash: Giants and Rams vs. Texans and Ravens)

The idea that Brady would have gone 11-5 with the Pats in 2020 simply floors me. (PS. Yeah, I was wrong when I said 8 playoff teams - for some reason, I thought the Dolphins had snuck in.)
I assume you watched tom
Brady play for 20 years and cam newton play last year. To watch those games and not be able to conclude Brady would have turned 4 of the 9 losses into wins floors me.

This stuff is self explanatory unless you have an agenda. To wit:


The patriots had 12 games in 2020 with less than 200 passing yards. Tom
Brady has had 11 in the last 7 years. Of course he makes a 4 game difference. We averaged 13.6 ppp in 9 losses.
A Brady led team has scored less than 14 points 9 times in the last 12 years.

Oh and the patriots defense allowed fewer points than the bucs. So your “hyperbole” about who was better belies the result on the field, which is all that really matters.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
When are people going to wise up and realize that Brady quit on the Patriots when things got tough? He had one season in 2019 where his weapons weren't great and he immediately bolted (if Brady waited around, he'd have a great shot at winning #7 with the Pats in 2021). All the guy cares about are super bowls. He doesn't care about the Patriots, the NE fanbase, or even the Tampa organization. He will go wherever he has a good shot to get a ring. I said it before, but if the Bucs didn't re-sign all those players, Brady would be incredibly moody now (in contrast he's as chipper as ever).
Brady leaving and the Patriots using 2020 to clear cap debt off the books is largely responsible for the spending spree in 2021, other factors are them only having 3% of their cap allocated to the QB position in 2021, otherwise known as the most expensive position on any given team. The third factor is the salary cap rising dramatically in two years with a new TV deal.

From 2014-2018 the Patriots pushed cap debt down the road, hired more expensive vets over cheaper rookies, had quality depth, they signed players when they needed a nudge to win a ring. Years of doing this resulted in 3 rings and 4 super bowl appearances in five years, but it also put them in cap hell by 2019. They couldn't come close to paying Tom Tampa money or providing him super weapons and the best team around him to win another. The decision to move on was a smart move for both the player and the team.

Do you know who understands (at least peripherally) the challenges of the salary cap?

“I think what makes it such a challenge is it’s hard to win one Super Bowl,” Brady said. “That just is something that, it’s difficult because it’s tough to win one Super Bowl. Every year, you know, 32 teams at it, every team can only spend the same amount of money, everyone drafts, everything’s meant to be 8-8. There’s salary caps. You just can’t go buy a football team."

People who say BB was "making excuses" last season about the salary cap are clueless...

 
Last edited:

patsfanincleveland

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
That's exactly what happened. BB knew other offenses couldn't keep up with the 2010-2012 NEP and he also knew he didn't have stalwarts at every position on D so he played 80s Edmonton Oilers football. Tons of plays. Tons of points. Get defenses tired. On D, make offenses pick their way down the field. Hope for turnovers. Limit drives to FGs.

Especially in 2011, and we had some of the same dummies of today crying back then about yards surrendered. They refused to realize the faster the game went, the bigger our advantage.

Of course, winning games meant nothing compared to other stats that one can cry about.

It was actually insane but I believe the Titans would have needed to play over 21 games to get the same number of snaps. Most teams were in the 18-19 range.
 

MAC10

Upper Crust
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
nahhhhh.....it was just time for everyone to move on........Brady was not going to win another SB if he stayed with the Pats.....BB was just not going to rebuild around a 43 year old QB, so the QB went somewhere where all they needed was a QB......the Pats needed much more than just a QB.

Tom Brady is gone, there is no Tom Brady

He's gone because he quit. Had he stayed here, he'd have a good shot at winning the Super bowl in 2021. He went to where the grass was greener. it’s his right to leave, but he decided to bolt because he didn’t have the weapons.
 
Last edited:

patsfanincleveland

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Brady leaving and the Patriots using 2020 to clear cap debt off the books is largely responsible for the spending spree in 2021, other factors are them only having 3% of their cap allocated to the QB position in 2021, otherwise known as the most expensive position on any given team. The third factor is the salary cap rising dramatically in two years with a new TV deal.

From 2014-2018 the Patriots pushed cap debt down the road, hired more expensive vets over cheaper rookies, had quality depth, they signed players when they needed a nudge to win a ring. Years of doing this resulted in 3 rings and 4 super bowl appearances in five years, but it also put them in cap hell by 2019. They couldn't come close to paying Tom Tampa money or providing him super weapons or the best team around him to win another. The decision to move on was a smart move for the player and for the team.

Do you know who understands (at least peripherally) the challenges of the salary cap?

“I think what makes it such a challenge is it’s hard to win one Super Bowl,” Brady said. “That just is something that, it’s difficult because it’s tough to win one Super Bowl. Every year, you know, 32 teams at it, every team can only spend the same amount of money, everyone drafts, everything’s meant to be 8-8. There’s salary caps. You just can’t go buy a football team."

People who say BB was making excuses last season about the salary cap are clueless...


This post is a work of art.

Is this like that NFT stuff?
 

RobertWeathers

Author of the Port Huron Statement
PatsFans.com Supporter
Especially in 2011, and we had some of the same dummies of today crying back then about yards surrendered. They refused to realize the faster the game went, the bigger our advantage.

Of course, winning games meant nothing compared to other stats that one can cry about.

It was actually insane but I believe the Titans would have needed to play over 21 games to get the same number of snaps. Most teams were in the 18-19 range.
Yep! We all know those defenses were not "elite" units or stout but they certainly weren't putrid. They were good enough to win with.
 

Hyped

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
He didn’t win a SB in 2019 and quit the team because the pats didn’t have the players to his liking. he‘s a spoiled brat.

WTF is this bull$hit? Coming from a guy with a screen name, "TomBrady12"?

Time to change your screen name.
 

Top