Asante to SS? (just an idea, don't read anything into it)

[stinkypete]

I read a few rumors (forgot at what site) that the pats are making it top priority to upgrade at CB, through trade or free agency. While Samuel has played admirably, Pats brass thinks he's a step slow for a starting corner and that teams are picking on him for that reason.

This makes me wonder, could Samuel start at SS as Rodney's long term replacement? His game seems similar to Rodney's (hard hits, knack for big ints). While Samuel is undersized for the position, he's bigger than Hawkins, who played well this year.

With Samuel at SS, we could start Hobbs and a vet, play Gay and Starks at the nickel and dime, and use an early draft pick on another young corner to groom.

What does everyone think?

 

[jeffd]

We already have one converted CB at FS. I'd rather a true run stuffing SS be brought in. think BB prefers two play 2 safeties rather than a strong and free safety but he went from Milloy to Harrison and contemplated Lynch all the while having Victor Green. He definately loves the hitters.

 

[ENFORCER]

nahhh asante is to small man...

 

[BelichickFan]

Samuel is little for a CB let alone a Safety. We need one top CB and let Samuel/Hobbs/Gay compete for 2,3,4.

If I were to move anyone I would move Wilson back to CB, let those 4 compete and revamp the Safeties.

 

[ilduce06410]

will wilson play his whole career out of position?

Samuel is little for a CB let alone a Safety. We need one top CB and let Samuel/Hobbs/Gay compete for 2,3,4.

If I were to move anyone I would move Wilson back to CB, let those 4 compete and revamp the Safeties.

IMO it's one of the oddities of the BB/SP leadership. in 5 years, they've drafted or UFA'd a few corners---asante, wilson, christian morton (who couldn't make the patriots and is now STARTING for the falcons), hobbs, gay. they've also brought in a few safeties---sanders, scott, dexter reid (he also couldn't make the cut and now is the nickle guy for our beloved dolts). THAT'S 8 DBs, plus 3-4 veteran players (harrison, starks, poole). not one of those players weighs over 205, and i believe not one of them ('cept rodney) is 6 feet tall.
IMO this is strange. iknowiknow, BB values cover guys.
but still, the secondary needs upgrading, after bringing in 11 DBs over the past 5 years. all these tiny guys, and ya cain't put all of them out there at once. one thing: besides wilson and hobbs, none of these DBs was a higher- than-4th round pick.
in any case, 11 guys in 5 years and we need to "upgrade the defensive backfield".

 

[BelichickFan]

I'm not sure what to say about Wilson. KC Joyner (The Football Scientist) had stats 12 months ago which suggested that Wilson was beaten more than we thought and it seemed to show up more this year without Harrison there to help out. If he can play an average or better CB it makes no sense to keep him at Safety as he's adequate but not great there. Is it possible that he's been at Safety too long (3 years) that he'll have trouble adjusting back to the tougher CB position ?

 

[jeffd]

I'm not sure what to say about Wilson. KC Joyner (The Football Scientist) had stats 12 months ago which suggested that Wilson was beaten more than we thought and it seemed to show up more this year without Harrison there to help out. If he can play an average or better CB it makes no sense to keep him at Safety as he's adequate but not great there. Is it possible that he's been at Safety too long (3 years) that he'll have trouble adjusting back to the tougher CB position ?

Unless we get a sure, stable FS I don't see Geno going back to corner. Rodney is still a question mark at SS. Moving Geno will create problems at FS (his replacement) and at CB (hasn't done this yet as pro). If Rodney is back and %100 maybe they try this.

 

[BelichickFan]

Unless we get a sure, stable FS I don't see Geno going back to corner. Rodney is still a question mark at SS. Moving Geno will create problems at FS (his replacement) and at CB (hasn't done this yet as pro). If Rodney is back and %100 maybe they try this.

I agree but if they think Wilson can play CB at the level we thought when he was drafted I would try to sign a decent veteran Safety, draft a guy in the 2nd or 3rd round and let those two compete with Sanders, Scott, Hawkins and hopefully Rodney. That should produce a decent pair and Hobbs, Samuel, Wilson and Gay would be a decent fouresome at CB. I don't expect it for a second, though.

 

[DaBruinz]

IMO it's one of the oddities of the BB/SP leadership. in 5 years, they've drafted or UFA'd a few corners---asante, wilson, christian morton (who couldn't make the patriots and is now STARTING for the falcons), hobbs, gay. they've also brought in a few safeties---sanders, scott, dexter reid (he also couldn't make the cut and now is the nickle guy for our beloved dolts). THAT'S 8 DBs, plus 3-4 veteran players (harrison, starks, poole). not one of those players weighs over 205, and i believe not one of them ('cept rodney) is 6 feet tall.
IMO this is strange. iknowiknow, BB values cover guys.
but still, the secondary needs upgrading, after bringing in 11 DBs over the past 5 years. all these tiny guys, and ya cain't put all of them out there at once. one thing: besides wilson and hobbs, none of these DBs was a higher- than-4th round pick.
in any case, 11 guys in 5 years and we need to "upgrade the defensive backfield".

Ilduce-
Just a point of Information. Christian Morton was cut by the Falcons and is playing for the Redskins now. Morton is their 5th CB.

Also, Rodney Harrison is 6'1 and 220-225 lbs. Chad Scott is 6'1 as well. Michael Stone is 6'.

However, i get the gist of what you are saying. Hopefully, the Pats will add someone like Tank Williams (6'3-225) or Adam Arculeta (6'-220) or possibly Tommy Polley to convert him.

 

[DaBruinz]

Unless we get a sure, stable FS I don't see Geno going back to corner. Rodney is still a question mark at SS. Moving Geno will create problems at FS (his replacement) and at CB (hasn't done this yet as pro). If Rodney is back and %100 maybe they try this.

Just an FYI - Wilson has lined up at Cornerback several times. Including in 2004 against the Steelers after Ty Law and either Samuel or Gay left the Pittsburgh game.

Wilson has also switched off before, lining up at corner while someone else moved back to safety.

 

[bucky]

Assante Samuel has been the Pats' #1 corner for 2 years now. And he's been pretty darn good for about 1.5 of those years, including being VERY solid in all 5 playoff games. I think Assante can be a #1 CB in the NFL. Hopefully he will take another step forward next year from where he finished 2005.

As for safety, I wouldn't mind seeing Mr Ty Law brough back with that switch in mind.

 

[stinkypete]

I'd love to see Asante continue to develop as a productive corner, but I think we could do better for our #1. With the cap room left over with Ty Law's dead money off the books, I don't see why we can't bring in someone like Brian Williams from Monnesota or Sam Madison, should he be cut from Miami. Maybe neither represents much of an upgrade over Samuel, but they'd do wonders for out CB rotation.

 

[ilduce06410]

Ilduce-
Just a point of Information. Christian Morton was cut by the Falcons and is playing for the Redskins now. Morton is their 5th CB.

Also, Rodney Harrison is 6'1 and 220-225 lbs. Chad Scott is 6'1 as well. Michael Stone is 6'.

However, i get the gist of what you are saying. Hopefully, the Pats will add someone like Tank Williams (6'3-225) or Adam Arculeta (6'-220) or possibly Tommy Polley to convert him.

bruinz, my mistake.
but didn't morton start for the falcons in the 2005 nfc title game against eagles?
correction on scott & stone is on the money, tho. have to include them in the group, and then we're up to 13 backs.
i like archuleta a lot, but hasn't he had a number of concussions? would love polley. can we get tebucky back? smile, now.

 

[Rainy-Day Patriot]

Just want to say that, as a matter of form, this thread is ideal. It's a good solid football conversation started by with a well-qualified title.

Kudos to StinkyPete.

Too many times do dillweeds post their opinions as though they're fact. This board kicks ass when spades are called spades and people talk plainly and civilly.

Kudos to PatsFans.Com and Ian and the rest of the moderators.

Just my two cents from a sometimes poster and a mosttimes lurker.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Samuel doesn't tackle well enough to be a safety. Too many times I've seen him bounce off gauys he was trying to tackle. I'd really like to see, whether it's Rodney coming back and being the same player, thru FA or the draft pick up a dominate player for the D backfield. Would love to have a Troy Palamalu type S or a top notch, bigger m2m, cover CB.

 

[pats1]

bruinz, my mistake.
but didn't morton start for the falcons in the 2005 nfc title game against eagles?

Incorrect again.

Morton was the Falcons' 4th/5th CB and didn't record any stats in the NFC Championship. DeAngelo Hall and Jason Webster started. Aaron Beasley backed up. Rossum returned kicks. Morton rode the bench.

He was cut by the Falcons this fall, was signed to the Redskins practice squad on December 16th and activated on December 21st. He played in 4 games with the Falcons as their 4th/5th CB, recording 5 tackles and 2 passes defended. He played in 1 game for the Redskins as their 5th/6th CB, recording 3 tackles and defending no passes.

dexter reid (he also couldn't make the cut and now is the nickle guy for our beloved dolts).

No, he isn't even close to being the Colts' nickel man. Harper and David start for the Colts. Rookies Marlin Jackson and Kelvin Hayden back up. Von Hutchins is the #5.

Reid is a safety, sitting behind Sanders, Doss, Jefferson, Sapp, and Giordano. He only sees some time on special teams.

besides wilson and hobbs, none of these DBs was a higher- than-4th round pick.

While the Patriots didn't draft some of these, which I know is your point, but:


Duane Starks was a 1st round pick, 10th overall, in 1998.

Tyrone Poole was a 1st round pick, 22nd overall, in 1995.

Chad Scott was a 1st round pick, 24th overall, in the 1997.

Eugene Wilson was a 2nd round pick, 36th overall, in 2003.

Artrell Hawkins was a 2nd round pick, 43rd overall, in 1998.

Michael Stone was a 2nd round pick, 54th overall, in 2001.

Hank Poteat was a 3rd round pick, 77th overall, in 2000.

Ellis Hobbs was a 3rd round pick, 84th overall, in 2005.

Guss Scott was a 3rd round pick, 95th overall, in 2004.

Asante Samuel was a 4th round pick, 120th overall in 2003.

James Sanders was a 4th round pick, 133rd overall, in 2005.

Rodney Harrison was a 5th round pick, 145th overall, in 1994.


Therefore, not counting the three undrafted (Gay, Ventrone, Spann), the lowest Patriots draft pick is Rodney Harrison. Everyone else was 4th round or higher.

not one of those players weighs over 205, and i believe not one of them ('cept rodney) is 6 feet tall.

You are pretty much correct on that one (Harrison is 6'1", Chad Scott is 6'1", Michael Stone is 6'0".) but what NFL DBs are that big? That doesn't always translate into hitting power. Take what Samuel and Geno do in that department as an example.

Champ Bailey is 6'0", 192.

Ronde Barber is 5'10", 184.

Troy Polamalu is 5'10", 212.

But there are the big guys, and I see your point there. But I just don't see the Pats drafting a big guy because of such.

 

[ilduce06410]

who have BB/SP invested in?

1st rounders - 2 starks, poole
2nd rounders - 1 wilson
3rd rounders - 2 hobbs, scott
4th rounders - 2 sanders, asante
5th rounders - 1 - rodney
6th rounders - 0
7th rounders - 1 morton

i get 6 of 9 players 3rd round or later (yes, 3rd round is the cusp). but what's the draft investment been for DLs? how about WRs? TEs? i suspect we've also not invested much of OUR draft assets into RBs.
OF COURSE big doesn't translate into hitting power. OF COURSE there are many short, small players who excel in the league. just look at the twig, ar at faulk. remember mack herron. randy vataha. rod shoate. when i hear someone say a player is "too small", i always griin.
BUT, i'm not talking about hitting power. wilson and samuel both have WRs looking for them on their inside routes. i'm talking about INJURIES. with everybody except hobbs and wilson, there was an injury. maybe it's poor technique. my theory is that they had to make too many first hits on 220-lb RBs popping into the secondary untouched.
samuel clemens said: "there are lies, there are D@m# lies, and then there are statistics."
perhaps this discussion represents more effort and better analysis than what we see out of borges in a year.
by the way, what was the original topic here?

"But I just don't see the Pats drafting a big guy because of such."
neither do i. i don't think they will either, altho i think they should. that's why i'm on a messagboard instead of in front of a mike, or in a press box.

 

[pats1]

1st rounders - 2 starks, poole
2nd rounders - 1 wilson
3rd rounders - 2 hobbs, scott
4th rounders - 2 sanders, asante
5th rounders - 1 - rodney
6th rounders - 0
7th rounders - 1 morton

i get 6 of 9 players 3rd round or later (yes, 3rd round is the cusp). but what's the draft investment been for DLs? how about WRs? TEs? i suspect we've also not invested much of OUR draft assets into RBs.

It's more like this over the past 5 years, including current roster players that weren't drafted by the Pats:

1st rounders - 3 - Duane Starks (1998), Tyrone Poole (1995), Chad Scott (1997)
2nd rounders - 3 - Eugene Wilson (2003), Michael Stone (2001), Artrell Hawkins (1998)
3rd rounders - 4 - Brock Williams (2001), Guss Scott (2004), Ellis Hobbs (2005), Hank Poteat (2000)
4th rounders - 3 - Asante Samuel (2003), Dexter Reid (2004), James Sanders (2005)
5th rounders - 2 - Hakim Akbar (2001), Rodney Harrison (1994)
6th rounders - 2 - Leonard Myers (2001), Antwan Harris (2000)
7th rounders - 1 - Christian Morton (2004)


You can't have 1st rounders across the board. That's obvious. The key is to get the best value out of your lower round picks. In some cases the Pats have done that (Givens, Brady) but in some cases they haven't (Stokes, Akbar, etc.).

What's the fetish with 1st rounders anyway? Players shouldn't automatically be valued over a lower round pick even if they performed under that of such a lower round pick. Rodney's a 5th round pick. Brock Williams is a 3rd round pick. Who's better?

Do you want some higher round picks as starters? Of course. But the placement of draft picks is just so over-hyped. It matters not.

You can build a team out of free agency, and it is in some cases, cheaper. Take 2001 for example. Yes, Seymour and Light were drafted, but there was also a handful of busts. Vrabel, Smith, Edwards, Cox, Phifer, Hamilton, Pleasant, Compton, Patten, and Buckley all made contributions to that championship as free agents that came in cheap.

What's the big need to draft this super-duper over-hyped unproven shut-down so-called game-changing CB?

What's wrong with having Geno, Hobbs, and Samuel starting? When you reinforce and fill in the gaps with Rodney, Starks, Poole, Chad Scott, Poteat and then have Sanders, Guss Scott, etc. competing, what's the problem there?

1st round picks = $$$ = not what BB wants.