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BaconGrundleCandy

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I understand why you'd want would want to bump both of them up. The thing I'd ask, though, is which quarterbacks you'd move down to make that happen. I'm not trying to do a spite ranking for Manning here..the issue is that I think other players have a greater claim to greatness. Because these guys are all top-10, I'm admittedly nit-picking to some degree, but I'm left with finding the players with the most major flaws.

Brady (none)
Baugh (none - could argue Luckman was better head to head, but in the grand scheme, Baugh is basically untouchable)
Graham (none - he is still ranked top 5 when AAFC experience is removed)
Montana (none)
Luckman (none - could argue he wasn't best of his era but also could legit argue he was, unlike Manning)
Staubach (none - he began career very late, but in some ways that makes his accomplishments more impressive)
Unitas (none - I've pointed out he is credited for things he didn't do, but even without that, he has no major flaws)

Starr (he never threw for more than the league average TD passes; the responsibility factor can't be zeroed out)
Manning (his big-game failures are almost as much his legacy as his positives)
Young (starting at age 30 was too much of an accomplishments deficit for him to overcome against the guys above him)

Yes, totally agree that Young's peak is up there. The era-adjusted statistical ranks had Young and Staubach as 1-2 in Super Bowl era.

I think putting Young in top 10 is much higher than you'll find on many people's top-10 rankings, which is shameful...if people think Rodgers is a top-10, there's nothing other than recency bias to exclude Young from the same standing.

I think also, despite that Manning bias will be assumed here, if I'm ranking these QBs based only on post-merger, Manning is #4. I think the major issue with putting him #9 is that this really is an all-time rankings list. If you either remove or de-rank Baugh, Luckman, Graham, Starr, and Unitas, like most lists tend to do, it looks much less damning for Manning.
Pretty logical post even though I feel more strongly about Manning. Maybe bump him up over everyone but Otto, Sammy & Staubach if I'm looking at it through Icey eyes and trying to be fair but both are in the top 10 so I can't complain.
 

Zarozzor

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
This is my list for now...I have the formula rankings (at least based on current standard) in paranthesis and have put them into tiers...within the tiers, I really couldn't give you a very strong argument that one guy in the tier should be ranked over another, and it comes down to preference about what you're focusing on for greatness.

I'm trying to weigh the totality of accomplishments and performance.

I don't claim to be fully objective here...I try to be fair, though naturally I'm going to be biased based on things I've observed with my eyes along with data, and modern players are going to get more scrutiny from me, for better or worse. Also, I tend to gvie tiebreakers to the older player. Why? Because if their reputations have surived this long, that tells me something...I like to ere on the side of caution with today's players because recency bias is a powerful phenomenon.

View attachment 32894
So I'll call both of these lists 1.0 because I can definitely see myself changing a few spots in the future. My criteria isn't fully finished yet either. Who knows, I may post in here a month from now with a different list.

On the all-time list I'm not going to include the following:
Arnie Herber
Benny Friedman
Red Dunn
Ed Danowski
Bob Waterfield

For me, I can't properly rank them since they're missing info some of the later quarterbacks have. I make an exception for Baugh and Luckman thanks to @Ice_Ice_Brady calculating their estimated win/loss.


1. Tom Brady
---------
2. Joe Montana
3. Otto Graham
---------
4. Bart Starr
5. Sammy Baugh
6. Roger Staubach
7. Johnny Unitas
---------
8. Peyton Manning
9. Steve Young
10. Sid Luckman
---------
11. John Elway
12. Aaron Rodgers
13. Len Dawson
---------
14. Terry Bradshaw
15. Dan Marino
16. Drew Brees
17. Brett Favre
---------
18. Norm Van Brocklin
19. Bobby Layne
20. Bob Griese
21. Kurt Warner
22. Fran Tarkenton
---------
23. Troy Aikman
24. Jim Kelly
25. Russell Wilson
26. Y.A. Tittle
27. Ben Roethlisberger
28. Sonny Jurgensen
29. Ken Stabler
30. Dan Fouts

Some quick thoughts

- Brady is absolutely hilarious. The gap between him and every other quarterback in history is insane. In baseball, basketball, and hockey at least you can make arguments for the greatest.

- I tend to go back and forth with Montana and Graham.

- 4-7 may be one of the toughest rankings I've done on any subject. You could make an argument for every single one of these guys to be in different spots. I'd love to hear any thoughts or arguments that could persuade me to change up the order. They're all that close to me. Same goes for 8-10.

- I think Wilson has the opportunity to get in the 15-20 range depending on how he finishes his career.

- Mahomes has the opportunity to reach the top 10 given the fast start to his career but it's going to be tough.

- Starr and Staubach are the most underrated quarterbacks of all-time. Most of the time you see them in the 15-25 range.
 
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Actual Pats Fan

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Strange list...not terrible overall but has some very bizarre ranks in there. I imagine someone used some kind of weighted system to come up with these results though. Where is it from?

Looking at where some of these are, I would guess there's heavy dose of counting/longevity stats and big passing yards. That would explain the upranking for Favre, Brees, and Marino. Staubach being at #28 is really absurd and that part makes me wonder if there's some fan bias. I don't know how anyone could come up with a list that has Eli > Staubach and yet have an overall list that's someone reasonable.

I do want to throw up seeing Roethlisberger over Baugh with this clearly being an all-time ranking project that must be doing some era adjusting. Oddly, though, his ranks from about 18-21 are in alignment with my rankings.
Indeed, Staubach at 28 is absurd. I'd take Flutie and Grogan over most of these guys.

But, my criteria is I want to win the game.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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So I'll call both of these lists 1.0 because I can definitely see myself changing a few spots in the future. My criteria isn't fully finished yet either. Who knows, I may post in here a month from now with a different list.

On the all-time list I'm not going to include the following:
Arnie Herber
Benny Friedman
Red Dunn
Ed Danowski
Bob Waterfield

For me, I can't properly rank them since they're missing info some of the later quarterbacks have. I make an exception for Baugh and Luckman thanks to @Ice_Ice_Brady calculating their estimated win/loss.


1. Tom Brady
---------
2. Joe Montana
3. Otto Graham
---------
4. Bart Starr
5. Sammy Baugh
6. Roger Staubach
7. Johnny Unitas
---------
8. Peyton Manning
9. Steve Young
10. Sid Luckman
---------
11. John Elway
12. Aaron Rodgers
13. Len Dawson
---------
14. Terry Bradshaw
15. Dan Marino
16. Drew Brees
17. Brett Favre
---------
18. Norm Van Brocklin
19. Bobby Layne
20. Bob Griese
21. Kurt Warner
22. Fran Tarkenton
---------
23. Troy Aikman
24. Jim Kelly
25. Russell Wilson
26. Y.A. Tittle
27. Ben Roethlisberger
28. Sonny Jurgensen
29. Ken Stabler
30. Dan Fouts

Some quick thoughts

- Brady is absolutely hilarious. The gap between him and every other quarterback in history is insane. In baseball, basketball, and hockey at least you can make arguments for the greatest.

- I tend to go back and forth with Montana and Graham.

- 4-7 may be one of the toughest rankings I've done on any subject. You could make an argument for every single one of these guys to be in different spots. I'd love to hear any thoughts or arguments that could persuade me to change up the order. They're all that close to me. Same goes for 8-10.

- I think Wilson has the opportunity to get in the 15-20 range depending on how he finishes his career.

- Mahomes has the opportunity to reach the top 10 given the fast start to his career but it's going to be tough.

- Starr and Staubach are the most underrated quarterbacks of all-time. Most of the time you see them in the 15-25 range.
Better list. Elway and Young were coddled and had great defenses. Put Flutie in the same position and he wins more than them. Because he was better. And for me Favre>Rodgers.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
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So I'll call both of these lists 1.0 because I can definitely see myself changing a few spots in the future. My criteria isn't fully finished yet either. Who knows, I may post in here a month from now with a different list.

On the all-time list I'm not going to include the following:
Arnie Herber
Benny Friedman
Red Dunn
Ed Danowski
Bob Waterfield

For me, I can't properly rank them since they're missing info some of the later quarterbacks have. I make an exception for Baugh and Luckman thanks to @Ice_Ice_Brady calculating their estimated win/loss.


1. Tom Brady
---------
2. Joe Montana
3. Otto Graham
---------
4. Bart Starr
5. Sammy Baugh
6. Roger Staubach
7. Johnny Unitas
---------
8. Peyton Manning
9. Steve Young
10. Sid Luckman
---------
11. John Elway
12. Aaron Rodgers
13. Len Dawson
---------
14. Terry Bradshaw
15. Dan Marino
16. Drew Brees
17. Brett Favre
---------
18. Norm Van Brocklin
19. Bobby Layne
20. Bob Griese
21. Kurt Warner
22. Fran Tarkenton
---------
23. Troy Aikman
24. Jim Kelly
25. Russell Wilson
26. Y.A. Tittle
27. Ben Roethlisberger
28. Sonny Jurgensen
29. Ken Stabler
30. Dan Fouts

Some quick thoughts

- Brady is absolutely hilarious. The gap between him and every other quarterback in history is insane. In baseball, basketball, and hockey at least you can make arguments for the greatest.

- I tend to go back and forth with Montana and Graham.

- 4-7 may be one of the toughest rankings I've done on any subject. You could make an argument for every single one of these guys to be in different spots. I'd love to hear any thoughts or arguments that could persuade me to change up the order. They're all that close to me. Same goes for 8-10.

- I think Wilson has the opportunity to get in the 15-20 range depending on how he finishes his career.

- Mahomes has the opportunity to reach the top 10 given the fast start to his career but it's going to be tough.

- Starr and Staubach are the most underrated quarterbacks of all-time. Most of the time you see them in the 15-25 range.

There are some changes here that I like...I think this is a good list. Tiers are accurate and gives room for preference within them.

  • Arnie Herber and Bob Waterfield have their full stats...the only thing they're lacking, like Baugh and Luckman, is the win/loss record wasn't assigned to the starter back then. However, both were the primary quarterback and the snap percentages keep their win/loss records basically in check. The reason I think both of these guys deserve a higher ranking than their stats is: Waterfield took over a perennial loser in the Cleveland Browns in the mid-40s, and his rookie year reversed their record and won a championship. He would win another one later on. Herber was great with the Packers, and Don Hutson is believed to be the greatest pre-merger wide receiver, but Herber was already good before he got there...also, Herber retired for three years and then was recruited back by the Giants, came out of retirement, and led them all the way to the championship game. Pretty damn impressive. Both of these guys set the table for "quarterback over system" theme.

  • I agree about Starr and Staubach, though the rankings of these two tend to be different.
    • Staubach just tends to be under-ranked for some reason. One thing is he played towards the end of the dead ball era with defensive holding allowed, and QB stats didn't break out until right after he retired with Marino breaking the ceiling. So Staubach's statistics never really had time to sparkle, even though his era adjusted stats are better than Marino's.
    • Starr is just a polarizing figure because his career is a lightning rod for the "system quarterback" debate. He didn't throw for high volumes and was an efficiency guy; he played for a great team, but he was also so instrumental in winning those championships. I tend to lean on the side of Starr's greatness rather than the cog-in-a-wheel thinking. I wouldn't argue with him being in a higher tier, where you put him. 2-9 is impossible to get right...too many deserving players.

  • Yes, 4-7 is really tough. On any given day, I'm prone to change anyone after Tom Brady, so even #2 is a really difficult decision for me. Montana could be the choice since he was the second most successful of the expansion era where it's harder to win a title; Graham because his dominance was incredible; I went with Baugh, yesterday anyway, because I think that he is true "father of modern quarterbacking" and changed the game in remarkable ways by making the passing game a disciplined approach, opening up the field, and carrying a team to a championship (including the championship game itself) with a high volume passing attack. But of course, there's always a counter argument; as I've said before, I'm not even convinced Baugh was greater than his own rival.
 

Zarozzor

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
There are some changes here that I like...I think this is a good list. Tiers are accurate and gives room for preference within them.

  • Arnie Herber and Bob Waterfield have their full stats...the only thing they're lacking, like Baugh and Luckman, is the win/loss record wasn't assigned to the starter back then. However, both were the primary quarterback and the snap percentages keep their win/loss records basically in check. The reason I think both of these guys deserve a higher ranking than their stats is: Waterfield took over a perennial loser in the Cleveland Browns in the mid-40s, and his rookie year reversed their record and won a championship. He would win another one later on. Herber was great with the Packers, and Don Hutson is believed to be the greatest pre-merger wide receiver, but Herber was already good before he got there...also, Herber retired for three years and then was recruited back by the Giants, came out of retirement, and led them all the way to the championship game. Pretty damn impressive. Both of these guys set the table for "quarterback over system" theme.

  • I agree about Starr and Staubach, though the rankings of these two tend to be different.
    • Staubach just tends to be under-ranked for some reason. One thing is he played towards the end of the dead ball era with defensive holding allowed, and QB stats didn't break out until right after he retired with Marino breaking the ceiling. So Staubach's statistics never really had time to sparkle, even though his era adjusted stats are better than Marino's.
    • Starr is just a polarizing figure because his career is a lightning rod for the "system quarterback" debate. He didn't throw for high volumes and was an efficiency guy; he played for a great team, but he was also so instrumental in winning those championships. I tend to lean on the side of Starr's greatness rather than the cog-in-a-wheel thinking. I wouldn't argue with him being in a higher tier, where you put him. 2-9 is impossible to get right...too many deserving players.

  • Yes, 4-7 is really tough. On any given day, I'm prone to change anyone after Tom Brady, so even #2 is a really difficult decision for me. Montana could be the choice since he was the second most successful of the expansion era where it's harder to win a title; Graham because his dominance was incredible; I went with Baugh, yesterday anyway, because I think that he is true "father of modern quarterbacking" and changed the game in remarkable ways by making the passing game a disciplined approach, opening up the field, and carrying a team to a championship (including the championship game itself) with a high volume passing attack. But of course, there's always a counter argument; as I've said before, I'm not even convinced Baugh was greater than his own rival.
Yeah I’m just really weird about having a correct win/loss record so I’ll admit that’s the reason a few guys were left out.

I switched Luckman’s spot on the list a lot. He went anywhere from 5-10. Like you said, he may have been greater than Baugh. Maybe I’m giving him the short end of the stick at 10? But for me 2-10 is just so hard.
 
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Tony2046

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2019 Weekly Picks Winner
He was a bit before my time, but I think I’ve watched more of his games, highlights, interviews, etc than any other researched player. He is #1 in era-adjusted stats (peak plus efficiency) in the Super Bowl era. What’s more remarkable is how much his ranking improved when accounting for sacks. He scrambled out of them instead of running into more of them. And an overall genuinely good, humble person.

Back then I was an Air Force brat. We traveled a lot. Dallas was on TV often so they became my favorite NFC team.

Staubach was a guy that made his defenses better and would sprinkle magic dust on his teammates, especially WRs, to make them play better.

Seriously though, I watched him do his last minute magic many times.
 

Tony2046

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2019 Weekly Picks Winner
So I'll call both of these lists 1.0 because I can definitely see myself changing a few spots in the future. My criteria isn't fully finished yet either. Who knows, I may post in here a month from now with a different list.

On the all-time list I'm not going to include the following:
Arnie Herber
Benny Friedman
Red Dunn
Ed Danowski
Bob Waterfield

For me, I can't properly rank them since they're missing info some of the later quarterbacks have. I make an exception for Baugh and Luckman thanks to @Ice_Ice_Brady calculating their estimated win/loss.


1. Tom Brady
---------
2. Joe Montana
3. Otto Graham
---------
4. Bart Starr
5. Sammy Baugh
6. Roger Staubach
7. Johnny Unitas
---------
8. Peyton Manning
9. Steve Young
10. Sid Luckman
---------
11. John Elway
12. Aaron Rodgers
13. Len Dawson
---------
14. Terry Bradshaw
15. Dan Marino
16. Drew Brees
17. Brett Favre
---------
18. Norm Van Brocklin
19. Bobby Layne
20. Bob Griese
21. Kurt Warner
22. Fran Tarkenton
---------
23. Troy Aikman
24. Jim Kelly
25. Russell Wilson
26. Y.A. Tittle
27. Ben Roethlisberger
28. Sonny Jurgensen
29. Ken Stabler
30. Dan Fouts

Some quick thoughts

- Brady is absolutely hilarious. The gap between him and every other quarterback in history is insane. In baseball, basketball, and hockey at least you can make arguments for the greatest.

- I tend to go back and forth with Montana and Graham.

- 4-7 may be one of the toughest rankings I've done on any subject. You could make an argument for every single one of these guys to be in different spots. I'd love to hear any thoughts or arguments that could persuade me to change up the order. They're all that close to me. Same goes for 8-10.

- I think Wilson has the opportunity to get in the 15-20 range depending on how he finishes his career.

- Mahomes has the opportunity to reach the top 10 given the fast start to his career but it's going to be tough.

- Starr and Staubach are the most underrated quarterbacks of all-time. Most of the time you see them in the 15-25 range.

That's a good list. Staubach above P Manning and Bradshaw above Marino. Good stuff.

In all fairness, Ice Ice makes great arguments for his various lists but this is the one that fits my biased opinions best. Haha.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
PatsFans.com Supporter
Yeah I’m just really weird about having a correct win/loss record so I’ll admit that’s the reason a few guys were left out.

I switched Luckman’s spot on the list a lot. He went anywhere from 5-10. Like you said, he may have been greater than Baugh. Maybe I’m giving him the short end of the stick at 10? But for me 2-10 is just so hard.

I feel strongly that the top 10 is very clear cut...the fact that it happens to be TOP 10 and coincides with pop culture standards is just a coincidence. Within the top 10, besides Brady, it's really hard to argue passionately for any of these guys over others. You're dealing not just with accomplishments and stats but also with the importance you place on the era itself, some of the players looking really achaic today.

But I think putting Luckman anywhere in the top 10 is the right move, even if it's #10. When you look at any of the guys 1-10, it's really hard to argue that anyone should replace them. On your chart, you have Elway at 11. I think that's the clear cutoff where you're now saying "this guy wasn't the greatest of his era or on some higher sphere, but he was really damn good."
 

Zarozzor

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
I feel strongly that the top 10 is very clear cut...the fact that it happens to be TOP 10 and coincides with pop culture standards is just a coincidence. Within the top 10, besides Brady, it's really hard to argue passionately for any of these guys over others. You're dealing not just with accomplishments and stats but also with the importance you place on the era itself, some of the players looking really achaic today.

But I think putting Luckman anywhere in the top 10 is the right move, even if it's #10. When you look at any of the guys 1-10, it's really hard to argue that anyone should replace them. On your chart, you have Elway at 11. I think that's the clear cutoff where you're now saying "this guy wasn't the greatest of his era or on some higher sphere, but he was really damn good."
Completely agree. With the top 10 you can say every single one of them were the best of their era or could be argued best of their era except Manning, but I’ll allow a little leeway considering who the other guy in his era is.

I also understand if someone puts Young over Manning. I have Manning one spot ahead even though he was #2 in his era and Young #1 in his. The deciding factor for me was the longevity edge, and better win/loss. Both underperformed in the playoffs compared to the regular season.
 
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Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
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That's a good list. Staubach above P Manning and Bradshaw above Marino. Good stuff.

In all fairness, Ice Ice makes great arguments for his various lists but this is the one that fits my biased opinions best. Haha.

Marino and Bradshaw is one of the most interesting ones…both inevitably hit the list around #15, and they have opposite resumes for greatness.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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Flutie > Young?

Dude...come on....
Absolutely.

Like most on the list, Young was given time to learn and grow in the NFL, and had a great not just good team to play for. I am amazed at how mesmerized people are by Steve Young. He's not bad; he took full advantage of the opportunity given him. I'm even more amazed at the same people's dismissal of Flutie.

Belichick puts Bledsoe back out there in '01; We lose of course and miss the playoffs; Brady eventually will be successful somewhere... maybe...
 

pazrul72

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2019 Weekly Picks Winner
Relevant to ”upside” draft crowd on PatsFans:

Joe Montana - 82nd
Johnny Unitas - 102nd
Roger Staubach - 126th
Tom Brady - 199th
Bart Starr - 200th

That’s literally half of the consensus top 10 quarterbacks eve
Thanks for this, it was driving me nuts during the draft how many people had to have a “first round QB” no matter the cost like it’s impossible for anyone else to succeed. Another thing that comes to mind is how many of these guys rode the bench their rookie year? I wonder if there is any correlation between having time to grow before taking the reins versus expected to be great right out of the gate.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
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Thanks for this, it was driving me nuts during the draft how many people had to have a “first round QB” no matter the cost like it’s impossible for anyone else to succeed. Another thing that comes to mind is how many of these guys rode the bench their rookie year? I wonder if there is any correlation between having time to grow before taking the reins versus expected to be great right out of the gate.

I did a mini-analysis on this a few years ago, on this site, and I thought teams are better off redshirting, from a bird’s eye perspective.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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Thanks for this, it was driving me nuts during the draft how many people had to have a “first round QB” no matter the cost like it’s impossible for anyone else to succeed. Another thing that comes to mind is how many of these guys rode the bench their rookie year? I wonder if there is any correlation between having time to grow before taking the reins versus expected to be great right out of the gate.
Marino is the exception.

Warner kicked around NFL Europe, the Arena League as well as bagged groceries (do not think his product speed/quality bagging pct. was kept track of) prior to getting his shot when Green got hurt. Favre hung out in Atlanta and GB for a while prior to Majkowski getting hurt; Brady of course had two training camps behind him when Bledsoe got knocked out. Brady and Flutie are examples of how the NFL is often collectively stupid. The Brady skepticism early on was not entirely due to Patriots hatred. Statistically, he was not necessarily that impressive early, nor was Montana.

Regarding time to grow, Elway and most others did not impress immediately, but they were given that time to learn and gain experience.
 

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