A New Cultural Dynamic

[imahobgoblin]

This is not a Tom vs Bill thread so please do not make it into one. I would like to hear your thoughts on a cultural trend of a player assuming leverage in order to shape the dynamic of the team to his liking. I think we see this in specifically two illustrations. First, Deshawn Watson wanted to have input over the hiring of a new coach. Since he did not get his way, he is refusing to play (at this point anyway) for the Texans and wants a trade. Second, Russel Wilson appears to be going down a similar path. According to the Athletic, Russ wants more control of the offense and is upset Pete wants balance over "Let Russ Cook." One dynamic New England has had through its dynasty, which was the greatest run in football history, is a clear authority of a coach who coaches the team. A Player does the job he is assigned to do. When everyone does their job, we win. This is one reason why I never see Watson or Wilson being a Patriot. If they think their power struggle is bad on their own respective teams, they cannot handle New England. Many NFL great teams were anchored in the longevity and authority of men like Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Bill Walsh, Tom Landry, or Chuck Noll. The modern NFL player has a difficult time following an authority higher than himself, which is anti-Belichick. I think this is why Watson or Wilson have not named NE as a possible destination.

 

[upstater1]

This is not a Tom vs Bill thread so please do not make it into one. I would like to hear your thoughts on a cultural trend of a player assuming leverage in order to shape the dynamic of the team to his liking. I think we see this in specifically two illustrations. First, Deshawn Watson wanted to have input over the hiring of a new coach. Since he did not get his way, he is refusing to play (at this point anyway) for the Texans and wants a trade. Second, Russel Wilson appears to be going down a similar path. According to the Athletic, Russ wants more control of the offense and is upset Pete wants balance over "Let Russ Cook." One dynamic New England has had through its dynasty, which was the greatest run in football history, is a clear authority of a coach who coaches the team. A Player does the job he is assigned to do. When everyone does their job, we win. This is one reason why I never see Watson or Wilson being a Patriot. If they think their power struggle is bad on their own respective teams, they cannot handle New England. Many NFL great teams were anchored in the longevity and authority of men like Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Bill Walsh, Tom Landry, or Chuck Noll. The modern NFL player has a difficult time following an authority higher than himself, which is anti-Belichick. I think this is why Watson or Wilson have not named NE as a possible destination.

Why are people portraying this as new? It's been part of the way things have gone for a very long time. Holdouts from star players are not uncommon, even some QBs. And do we give Peyton Manning and John Elway a pass for refusing the play for the teams with the #1 draft pick?

 

[luuked]

This is not a Tom vs Bill thread so please do not make it into one. I would like to hear your thoughts on a cultural trend of a player assuming leverage in order to shape the dynamic of the team to his liking. I think we see this in specifically two illustrations. First, Deshawn Watson wanted to have input over the hiring of a new coach. Since he did not get his way, he is refusing to play (at this point anyway) for the Texans and wants a trade. Second, Russel Wilson appears to be going down a similar path. According to the Athletic, Russ wants more control of the offense and is upset Pete wants balance over "Let Russ Cook."

That is all assumption and hearsay from the media fed by various levels of agents, team sources and whatnot. Not one of them has come out and said anything close to it openly.

Especially with Wilson it is a head scratching situation because there are not many places where his supporting cast would be necessarily better. At least with Watson it is pretty clear that he is just sick of being in a ****hole that neither builds protection for him nor has any clue how or where to steer the ship. With a batshit insane chaplain cosplaying the captain at the helm.


But even if we assume for the sake of argument that this is what they want then the solution is easy, tell them: Nope. Go. ****. Yourself.

The same way no player will ever get a contract that is based on the percentage of the salary cap, no player will ever get any real input on major organizational decision. If there is one thing that owners want to avoid like the plague it is setting precedents.

Finally, it is also usually for the best of the organization that a player focuses on what he is paid to do and not other people's jobs. This is where the Dunning Kruger effect often comes in with many not being aware of how much they don't know about particular fields and assuming that they are somehow proficient.

 

[sean10mm]

Watson's ~alleged~ issues with the Texans go way beyond one coaching hire. There is a long history there. And at this point the place is basically run like a cult.

With Wilson it's harder to see what he's really going for beyond wanting a better OL and I guess more butt kissing? Dude's a weirdo.

 

[Sicilian]

Why are people portraying this as new? It's been part of the way things have gone for a very long time. Holdouts from star players are not uncommon, even some QBs. And do we give Peyton Manning and John Elway a pass for refusing the play for the teams with the #1 draft pick?

I think you meant Eli Manning, but your point stands. Players have always tried to pull this, and in some cases it's worked (I would say Eli made out well with his decision). But I'm not worried about it suddenly becoming a trend that results in "super teams" or only being able to win a SB if you can convince one of these diva QB's to come to your team. Brady's situation was about as far from that as you can imagine, and it worked for a lot of reasons that I won't hash out here (because they've been done to death). But that was a free agent situation. Never once did he ever publicly try to get the Patriots to move him.

 

[upstater1]

I think you meant Eli Manning, but your point stands. Players have always tried to pull this, and in some cases it's worked (I would say Eli made out well with his decision). But I'm not worried about it suddenly becoming a trend that results in "super teams" or only being able to win a SB if you can convince one of these diva QB's to come to your team. Brady's situation was about as far from that as you can imagine, and it worked for a lot of reasons that I won't hash out here (because they've been done to death). But that was a free agent situation. Never once did he ever publicly try to get the Patriots to move him.

Yes, Eli, not Peyton.

 

[Sicilian]

Watson's ~alleged~ issues with the Texans go way beyond one coaching hire. There is a long history there. And at this point the place is basically run like a cult.

With Wilson it's harder to see what he's really going for beyond wanting a better OL and I guess more butt kissing? Dude's a weirdo.

I think what we're seeing with Wilson in Seattle is the kind of thing that makes the last 20 years for the Patriots so amazing. From all accounts you have a great QB with a good attitude, playing for a great coach who players seem to love playing for. Despite that seeming like a perfect match for long term harmony, you're now seeing cracks in philosophy after 9 seasons. On the flip side, you had a great QB with a good attitude, playing for a great coach with the reputation of being a MAJOR pain in the a**, where players have no fun and everyone is miserable (except for the week after they win a Super Bowl), and they kept that relationship productive for 18 of the 19 years they were together.

That's REMARKABLE in hindsight, we were just too close to it year in year out and took it for granted. I would say the Saints are another decent example, with Peyton and Brees being together for a long time (just with less overall success), but they don't seem to be ending on bad terms. Most teams end up like Seattle: Max out at 10 years before either the coach or QB has to change.

 

[Hyped]

Yeah, BB runs the show in Foxborough...no ifs and buts. However, it isn't like players never have any input at all....for years "He who shall not be named" had input in the weekly offensive game plan installation...case in example, Superbowl XXXVI...Weis suggested that Patten run a in/out corner route because he thought Bly would bite....and "He who shall not be named" liked it and signed off on it....and it was the only passing TD he threw that post-season.

Similarly in New Orleans, Drew Brees is presented a wide array of plays....and he narrows it down to what he likes. The same was done for Arians/Palmer and even McVay/Goff.

But yeah....game plan is one thing....personnel is another. I think Wilson and Watson would be hands off if they felt that the front office had some competence or a vision that aligned with their own. In Wilson's case, I can see why he's tired of getting hit all the time.....but at the same time...he held out a bit for his BIG contract which has shaped that team (shrugs).

 

[Deus Irae]

Watson's ~alleged~ issues with the Texans go way beyond one coaching hire. There is a long history there. And at this point the place is basically run like a cult.

With Wilson it's harder to see what he's really going for beyond wanting a better OL and I guess more butt kissing? Dude's a weirdo.

Wilson and Rodgers both saw what Brady did, and they saw the results. They saw that after seeing how it worked when Peyton was catered to in Indy/Denver (early on). Is it really any surprise that those two particular QBs would then get the itch to have similar input and power, especially when they can call for it in ways that cover for their own issues?

 

[amfootball]

This is not a Tom vs Bill thread so please do not make it into one. I would like to hear your thoughts on a cultural trend of a player assuming leverage in order to shape the dynamic of the team to his liking. I think we see this in specifically two illustrations. First, Deshawn Watson wanted to have input over the hiring of a new coach. Since he did not get his way, he is refusing to play (at this point anyway) for the Texans and wants a trade. Second, Russel Wilson appears to be going down a similar path. According to the Athletic, Russ wants more control of the offense and is upset Pete wants balance over "Let Russ Cook." One dynamic New England has had through its dynasty, which was the greatest run in football history, is a clear authority of a coach who coaches the team. A Player does the job he is assigned to do. When everyone does their job, we win. This is one reason why I never see Watson or Wilson being a Patriot. If they think their power struggle is bad on their own respective teams, they cannot handle New England. Many NFL great teams were anchored in the longevity and authority of men like Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Bill Walsh, Tom Landry, or Chuck Noll. The modern NFL player has a difficult time following an authority higher than himself, which is anti-Belichick. I think this is why Watson or Wilson have not named NE as a possible destination.

I do think Bill is viewed as old school which is not something that will help us with this rebuild.

 

[imahobgoblin]

Yeah, BB runs the show in Foxborough...no ifs and buts. However, it isn't like players never have any input at all....for years "He who shall not be named" had input in the weekly offensive game plan installation...case in example, Superbowl XXXVI...Weis suggested that Patten run a in/out corner route because he thought Bly would bite....and "He who shall not be named" liked it and signed off on it....and it was the only passing TD he threw that post-season.

Similarly in New Orleans, Drew Brees is presented a wide array of plays....and he narrows it down to what he likes. The same was done for Arians/Palmer and even McVay/Goff.

But yeah....game plan is one thing....personnel is another. I think Wilson and Watson would be hands off if they felt that the front office had some competence or a vision that aligned with their own. In Wilson's case, I can see why he's tired of getting hit all the time.....but at the same time...he held out a bit for his BIG contract which has shaped that team (shrugs).

I think your last point is fantastic. Russ held out for a big contract and is now complaining about this roster. I respect his ability but I do think Russ is a weirdo.

 

[imahobgoblin]

I do think Bill is viewed as old school which is not something that will help us with this rebuild.

It won't help us in signing modern divas, but when has it ever?

 

[Kontradiction]

Yeah, BB runs the show in Foxborough...no ifs and buts. However, it isn't like players never have any input at all....for years "He who shall not be named" had input in the weekly offensive game plan installation...case in example, Superbowl XXXVI...Weis suggested that Patten run a in/out corner route because he thought Bly would bite....and "He who shall not be named" liked it and signed off on it....and it was the only passing TD he threw that post-season.

Similarly in New Orleans, Drew Brees is presented a wide array of plays....and he narrows it down to what he likes. The same was done for Arians/Palmer and even McVay/Goff.

But yeah....game plan is one thing....personnel is another. I think Wilson and Watson would be hands off if they felt that the front office had some competence or a vision that aligned with their own. In Wilson's case, I can see why he's tired of getting hit all the time.....but at the same time...he held out a bit for his BIG contract which has shaped that team (shrugs).

Wilson gets hit a lot because he needlessly leaves the pocket all the time and runs around the offensive backfield like a chicken with its head cut off. It has created some spectacular plays that didn’t need to be spectacular. The hits also clearly pile up as he’s slowed down considerably after hot starts in the last two seasons. Watch what happens if he goes to LV. One of the best OLs in all of football will turn into a sieve overnight.

On a smaller scale, that’s one of the reasons why I have zero interest in Minshew as a bridge QB. He does the exact same thing. Pocket is clean around him, and he starts to dance and moves laterally which gives the rushers a new lane and, as a result, an advantage. The majority of the time, he can simply climb the pocket and actually help the protection.

 

[borg]

The $40 million QB 's roster input.....

Sign me a $16 mill LT
Sign me a $12 mill RT
Sign me a $12 mill TE
Sign me a $8 mill Center
Sign me $17 mill #1 WR
Sign me another $17 mill #1 WR
Use our 1st rounder on a pass catching stud RB who can protect me
Give me a free lease at the strip mall in the stadium parking lot
Hire my masseuse as the team physician

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Both Watson and Wilson signed mega contracts, and our now complaining that they don't have enough "say" in how the organization is run.

If they were that worried about it, maybe they shouldn't have signed. Maybe they should have negotiated a buy back provision in their contracts, where if they wish to be traded, they have to pay back the remianing amounts of their signing bonueses to the club.

You are not going to see the BRady/BB dynamic ever again, because you had a) a great QB who didn't want the mega contract, and b) a HC with full power who had 100% job security.

Carroll is pretty secure in his position, but BOB had to mortgage the future to win now, and when that didn't happen he got fired, and the Texans are left with no draft picks and very little cap space.

Seattle too has traded away thier draft picks and have even less cap sapce than Houston.

Trading either one of them would cripple their respective franchises. Sure they could get a bunch of draft picks back, but both would be well over the cap and basically have to forfeit 2021 and then try and find a QB.

 

[sean10mm]

I agree it's kind of unclear how some of these hoped for QB moves are possible just based on basic cap economics, though teams like the Saints seem to be able to game the cap indefinitely in spite of constantly being in "cap trouble" every offseason so who knows.

There's a large amount of ego and delusion for any QB who isn't Tom Brady to think they can just do what Brady did and get the same results. Like Russell Wilson ~apparently~ thinks he's a Michael Jordan tier athletic great and it's making him psycho that he only has 1 ring. He ~allegedly~ thinks he has the answers and can win if he just gets to dictate to his team or go someplace that will let him do that. But he hasn't earned that respect and isn't beloved by his teammates and ex-teammates like Brady is. Half the 2014 team thought Wilson was a biznatch, he's not the guy to save a team's culture and bring in the likes of Gronk, Brown and Fournette to bolster the roster along the way.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

The $40 million QB 's roster input.....

Sign me a $16 mill LT
Sign me a $12 mill RT
Sign me a $12 mill TE
Sign me a $8 mill Center
Sign me $17 mill #1 WR
Sign me another $17 mill #1 WR
Use our 1st rounder on a pass catching stud RB who can protect me
Give me a free lease at the strip mall in the stadium parking lot
Hire my masseuse as the team physician

This about sums it up.

Thanks CAP for never going down until now.

 

[n6249c]

I’m going to say the key to NE success was that it was not Tom vs Bill but rather Tom and Bill For the longest time. It broke down when it became Tom vs Bill.

It seems to me that the key was when Brady arrived he had a chip on his shoulder and no trophies in his resume. He couldn’t even hold onto the starting job in college with any kind of secure grasp. So he couldn’t challenge Bill, all he could do is focus with monomaniacal intensity on doing his job as QB, to be the best he could be while Bill was doing the same as coach. The results were magical.

as Brady accrued success it reinforced that they were doing things right, in a way that worked for years. But as Brady matured and came to feel he knew all the answers on the test he also started to second guess Bill. The results were inevitable. They had to split up.

we saw Brady prove he still had it last year. Still remains to be seen when age will catch up to him.

last year Bill’s “better a year early” philosophy ran into Covid complications and the results weren’t good. It remains to be seen whether Bill can rekindle the magic with the new cast of characters in 2021. if he does his approach will be validated, and if he doesn’t it will make it easier to question his genius. I don’t know if he’ll win another Lombardi, but I’d expect he will continue to be true to his nature and that means he will build a roster out of players who buy into that style. That makes me think he has as much interest in signing Watson or Wilson as they do in playing for him. Surprised that he signed Cam, even more surprised that Cam apparently would be okay with coming back to play for him again. It’ll be interesting to see how things shake out.

 

[TheRainMaker]

It's amazing players are just now finding this out considering how much money they are making/bringing in for the team. When you are relatively young, a QB and make more money than your Coach, who's really in charge? The star players on the Jaguars kicked and screamed their way out. Anthony Davis forced the Pelicans to trade him to the Lakers. James Harden started to take indirect shots publicly and it finally forced the Rockets hand. Considering what Mahomes has done for the Chiefs, he should have a lot of say within that organization.

If Watson stands his ground, he will get his wish. Same with Wilson.

 

[RobertWeathers]

If Watson stands his ground, he will get his wish. Same with Wilson.

I completely agree.

In the short-term it'll be hard on Watson/Wilson if their respective teams hold their ground but at the end of the day teams view them as assets. Teams release/trade assets when they not longer have the value commensurate with their compensation or if they can realize greater long-term value moving them along.

Just a matter of time...