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A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by IcyPatriot, Jul 8, 2020.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly Picks Winner

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    A Letter on Justice and Open Debate | Harper's Magazine

    Strong debate going on here ... about having a healthy debate ...
    not much different than our problems here.

    "censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty."
     
  2. vuudu

    vuudu Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract Weekly Picks Winner

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    I love the message, it is what I see as well, but the fact that they put Trump in there immediately turns his fans off on the message. Illiberalism is a threat to our democracy.
    I don't know how I can contribute to this discussion when I see my Commander in Chief's actions emboldening extreme factions who are growing by the hour.
    I am unable to see how this thread is not political. The point is to stop finger pointing but look what I have just done. Will voting Trump out make a difference? I don't really know, but what I do know is that four more years of Trump will continue to put this country on the edge and someone will do something stupid and we will all jump on the streets.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly Picks Winner

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    I also think it would have been better to leave that line out :
    "The forces of illiberalism are gaining strength throughout the world and have a powerful ally in Donald Trump, who represents a real threat to democracy."

    The we are becoming then idea would have worked a bit better ...
    Instead what it did was entrenched some into rounding up allies ...
    Exactly what the letter says they do more and more of lately ... more or less bully opinion.
    They are railing against the letter while simultaneously doing what it says they are now better at.
     
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  4. vuudu

    vuudu Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract Weekly Picks Winner

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    Some of the signatures on the letter surprised me though.
     
  5. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly Picks Winner

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    Yes ... no question ... but they are troubled and probably felt they needed to step forward.
    That high road they felt was theirs is getting washed away by the radical elements ...
     
  6. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not sure what you are saying ... who is the ‘bully opinion’? Trump? He is exactly the savior the Tea Party and the Freedom Caucus needed to force a minority viewpoint into the masses. The right decided to wage war on liberalism. They didn’t want a better country. They ultimately want to return to ‘more traditional’ values. In the process, they decided to move against the PC culture, they decided to hate liberalism. Hey, that’s your right, but don’t expect dialogue in return, it’s not going to happen. It’s a real simple problem with no solution.

    with what the right is trying to do today, there really is nothing to talk about. After they’ve been relieved from cramming sh*t down peoples throats, they should only expect the same in return. When the political pendulum swings in one direction, it doesn’t stay, it comes back just as hard.

    We are in a cycle that will complete itself. Nobody gets to define the point of perspective that begins dialogue. The right has been stuffing the courts for the last 3 years after refusing the appointment of Merrick Garland .... reforming tax policy as a form of discrimination against blue states.

    sorry, this administration has filled so many with piss and vinegar, now you get to watch the result.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  7. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Francis Fukayama needed something to do now that history's over :D
     
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  8. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Not a bad letter. It was primarily aimed at the left, so I don't have a big problem with the shot at Trump to establish bona fides.

    I do think it's funny that some of the signatories are backing away because of others who signed, since joining with others you disagree with would seem to be largely the point of the thing.
     
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  9. lancerman

    lancerman In the Starting Line-Up

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    Some aren’t. JK Rowling specifically is signing it because she’s been under fire for insensitive comments towards the trans community. Nobody has silenced or censored her. Her peers have criticized her and she’s no longer the golden Harry Potter queen who can do no wrong. So naturally she feels oppressed. Kasparov makes sense if you know his history. He was very much against a fascist Russian government who was tyrannical by nature. This is right up his ally.

    The general sentiment is fine, but some are using it self servingly and taking it to an extreme where they are against all criticism and consequences
     
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  10. lancerman

    lancerman In the Starting Line-Up

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    It’s because some who signed are in hot water at the moment and they are using the letter as a shield to avoid criticism in a way the letter doesn’t actually describe itself, so now it’s becoming used as a bit of an implicit stamp of approval of the unsavory statements of other signatures and it never was attended as such.
     
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  11. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Actually, I think the intent was precisely that...that's there's a chilling of speech that's occurring in the current climate with an ever-broadening definition of just what constitutes "unsavory" opinions.
     
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  12. lancerman

    lancerman In the Starting Line-Up

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    Well evidently the people who signed it didn’t feel it meant that since they backed away.

    Either way this comes down to the confusion that is often persistent here that freedom of speech is somehow equal to freedom of consequences. JK Rowling has the right to say something without legal remedy. She does not have the right to say something with impunity of criticism of her peers and private entities are allowed to distance themselves from her.

    You are entitled free speech. Not speech without consequence. Not speech that has no impact on your personal relationships. Not speech elevated by the platform of a business entity. Not speech just your employer and peer employees have to tolerate and burden themselves with. And in some instances the Supreme Court determined that speech that is potentially harmful is not even legal.

    But anyone can go on main street today and say whatever opinion they want without being arrested as long as they are willing to deal with a crowd. Or you can write a blog. Or you can talk to people in your sphere.

    Like I said at least one person is signing this because she made statements and people she worked with in the past disavowed her (that’s their right) and she’s been criticized in the media (that’s their right).
     
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  13. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Which is sort of hilarious. As Malcolm Gladwell said, he signed the Harpers letter "because there were lots of people who also signed the Harpers letter whose views I disagreed with. I thought that was the point of the Harpers letter." Those backing away are kind of missing the point.

    I've got a few thoughts on the rest of your reply, but paying work is calling so it will have to wait. Ideally, we would all get paid just for posting here. Someone should look into that.
     
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  14. Jlaff

    Jlaff Early Bird Specials PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly Picks Winner

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    That is funny and sad that people coming out against cancel culture end up retracting their position out of abject fear of cancel culture. Don't let it be lost that they felt the need to secure their own mob of signatures before any of them would come out in support of something so basic like the ability to hold unpopular opinions and speak your mind.

    And I agree with those who regarding the Trump dig. But they realistically probably slipped that in as a defence against cancel culture (i.e., don't cancel us, look, we hate Trump too!). At least come up with something logical though. I've never seen anyone properly articulate how Trump is a "threat to democracy". What nonsense.
     
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  15. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Cancel culture sucks, but what on earth does it have to do with Trump? Really think about this. Besides that you agree with his sensibilities, what does it actually have to do with the executive office?
     
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  16. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    • respect for an independent judiciary
    • support for a free and independent press
    • more generally, the importance of independent actors within government, as opposed to actors who simply owe loyalty to the president
    • a commitment to the peaceful resolution of political disputes rather than encouraging violence;
    • respect for the legitimacy of elections;
    • not using the legal system to attack political opponents;
    • not expressing admiration for foreign autocrats;
    • preserving transparency within government;
    • the maintenance of a sharp separation between the private interests of public servants and the public good;
    • at least a minimal commitment to truth telling. The remainder of this article elaborates upon Trump’s transgressions against these foundational norms of democracy.
     
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  17. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Trump is his own cancel culture
     

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