DL Scheme Question

Can someone explain the basic DL scheme to me.

The general thought is that 3-4 teams like to have big fat guys to suck up the OL and let the LB make the plays. Bryan Cox (I wish I still had a link to the article) described the Patriots scheme as being different from that where the DL are supposed to make more plays which is why we need big LB as we have more OG coming through to the LB. And the investment in DL would go against the big fat guy thing.

Our DL tackle totals don't suggest huge playmakers despite this supposedly more aggressive DL scheme than the typical 3-4. Can someone give me some insight ?

I'm not quite sure but what are DL does is stop the line from making a push up. Guys like Seymour and Wilfork take the entire LT, LG and C right out of the mix and hold them where they are if not push them back. Warren does good on just against one player but looks to be overpowered sometimes by two or more guys.

Also our line is supposed to stop the run. Pure and simple.

With allowing the DL to push and hold their players it gives our team the ability to rush either OLB or drop back into coverage. Giving the team a lot of different looks and ability to confuse teams of who is doing what and when.


I think this what you mean but like i said i'm not to sure myself.

3-4 Base

My Understanding of our 3-4 goes as follows...

We have 3 down lineman.
If you know football, you know you have your gaps.

(c) T (b) G (a) C (a) G (b) T (c)
(tackle, guard, center, guard, tackle) in the oline
The 2 gaps to the left of the center are the A Gap, guards b gap. Etc.

In our 3-4 (base scheme) Wilfork (NT) is responsible for controlling A-gap.
Which is why it's called a 2 gap scheme...
Wilfork needs to maintain his ground and make the A gap not exist.
While Seymour and Warren both line up head up on the Tackle and must control both gaps either way.
The C and B gap. (2 gap scheme...)

That leaves the guards free to run at our ILB all day long.
Which is why our ILBs have to be strong tough guys.
So that they can take on a guard head on and control either gap of him as well.

The OLBs set the edge. This means they prevent anything from getting outside of them. They have to flush everything back towards the middle.

In essence during a running play the running back should have nowhere to run. As the defense closes in on him. It's a remarkable defense that employs players with great strength and brains. It's why we hear the phrase... just do your job... applied to this defense... don't do too much. (Monty Beisel)

If one of our ILBs has a bad read and is at the wrong place, it could mean that a RB has 5-7 free yards.

This is my understanding of the 2 gap 3-4 (which differred from Baltimores 1 gap 3-4) that our Pats run.

Lbaron said:

My Understanding of our 3-4 goes as follows...

We have 3 down lineman.
If you know football, you know you have your gaps.

(c) T (b) G (a) C (a) G (b) T (c)
(tackle, guard, center, guard, tackle) in the oline
The 2 gaps to the left of the center are the A Gap, guards b gap. Etc.

In our 3-4 (base scheme) Wilfork (NT) is responsible for controlling A-gap.
Which is why it's called a 2 gap scheme...
Wilfork needs to maintain his ground and make the A gap not exist.
While Seymour and Warren both line up head up on the Tackle and must control both gaps either way.
The C and B gap. (2 gap scheme...)

That leaves the guards free to run at our ILB all day long.
Which is why our ILBs have to be strong tough guys.
So that they can take on a guard head on and control either gap of him as well.

The OLBs set the edge. This means they prevent anything from getting outside of them. They have to flush everything back towards the middle.

In essence during a running play the running back should have nowhere to run. As the defense closes in on him. It's a remarkable defense that employs players with great strength and brains. It's why we hear the phrase... just do your job... applied to this defense... don't do too much. (Monty Beisel)

If one of our ILBs has a bad read and is at the wrong place, it could mean that a RB has 5-7 free yards.

This is my understanding of the 2 gap 3-4 (which differred from Baltimores 1 gap 3-4) that our Pats run.

Click to expand...

That is a pretty good explanation of the basics .... then comes all the
variations.

Look at it this way:
There are 7 OL positions (counting 2 TEs)
Our front 7 players are responsible for the gaps on either side of the man across from them. The OLB on the weakside of a 1 TE set is in space theoretically, but he will '2gap' a pulling G or FB or Hback.
Its kind of like 7 on 7 run into each other. The defenders job is to hold the los. While that may lead to DLs making more plays, in practice it can lead to plays designed to go to a hole needing to bounce to another. (When watching the Pats play D it is always interesting to see the plays designed to between C and G or G and T, and watch the RB bounce out. He'll run parallel to the los trying to find a seam, and when we are playing it right ends up all the way to the sideline with a corner and or safety forcing him oob for nothing).
The ILBs typically key the Gs. (It used to be the FB in the old power I days)
Bruschi for example will read where the play is designed to go by what the G does. If he block down, the play is going outside on that side. If he pulls the ball will follow him. If he blocks out the play is going inside him or to the other side.
One of the key responsibilities of the ILBs is when the play starts away, they must step up and fill the cutback area (Usually they will step up in the C vicinity)
A couple of other things:
-The NT 'reads' by th eway he is blocked. Basically you fight against the block because the play is going where he is trying to take you from.
-The ILBs are typically taking on Gs, but since they are playing in some space can also work to avoid the block sometimes. That is, if the G comes to them, they will have the time to pick a side, and blow past him and not have the ball carrier already be gone by.
-It is a bad system for getting sacks out of your DL. Their 1st movement is to engage the blocker, while 1 gap teams have the first move by DLs be to get past the blocker and into the backfield.
-There are numerous stunts, twists, blitzes, etc that can be as few as 2 guys or as many as 7 changing duties.
-The reason we need bigger LBs is that they must confront contact rather than avoid it.

JR4 said:

That is a pretty good explanation of the basics .... then comes all the
variations.

Click to expand...

THE FUN STUFF!

I like bringing the ILB an OLB of one side and make them loop around seymour as he neutralizes by utilizing and outside rush on the tackle...

Of course if they run to the middle on this, they get yardage...
This blitz is best used in a 2nd and long situation.

I love the 3-4 Defense. And only wish we had an outside rushing freak like BB
had in Lawrence Taylor. I think Rosie was supposed to be that guy.

I mastered the 3-4 in madden

If you watch the last 4 Patriots games from last season, you'll see something very rare and totally incredible. - Richard Seymour making plays in the (b) - (c) and (d) gaps on his side of the field.
Since the 1980's, I've only seen Bruce Smith be able to do that.

Bump

The last three posts are outstanding. More, please!

Lbaron said:

My Understanding of our 3-4 goes as follows...

We have 3 down lineman.
If you know football, you know you have your gaps.

(c) T (b) G (a) C (a) G (b) T (c)
(tackle, guard, center, guard, tackle) in the oline
The 2 gaps to the left of the center are the A Gap, guards b gap. Etc.

In our 3-4 (base scheme) Wilfork (NT) is responsible for controlling A-gap.
Which is why it's called a 2 gap scheme...
Wilfork needs to maintain his ground and make the A gap not exist.
While Seymour and Warren both line up head up on the Tackle and must control both gaps either way.
The C and B gap. (2 gap scheme...)

Click to expand...

AndyJohnson said:

A couple of other things:
-The NT 'reads' by the way he is blocked. Basically you fight against the block because the play is going where he is trying to take you from.
-It is a bad system for getting sacks out of your DL. Their 1st movement is to engage the blocker, while 1 gap teams have the first move by DLs be to get past the blocker and into the backfield.

Click to expand...

This is why I think BB traded for Sullivan. The Saints drafted Sullivan at "315." They play a 1-gap, which means that they expect him to be lean, mean and quick to the QB (think Warren Sapp). Instead Sullivan ballooned up to Keith Traylor size, and now is only good at stuffing the run. Which means that he could have a use in BB's 2-gap scheme. The Saints got a KR to replace 35 year old Michael Lewis.

Mike the Brit is hooked....I LOVE it...having been to England and Australia I know how immersed in rugby and soccer Brits are....THIS is the good stuff, Mike....now you can see why Seymour is considered to be one of the best players in the league. A lot of different looks along a defensive line, the game within the game...which is why NFL football is such a great sport

excellent thread.

SeanBruschi54 said:

I'm not quite sure but what are DL does is stop the line from making a push up. Guys like Seymour and Wilfork take the entire LT, LG and C right out of the mix and hold them where they are if not push them back. Warren does good on just against one player but looks to be overpowered sometimes by two or more guys.

Also our line is supposed to stop the run. Pure and simple.

With allowing the DL to push and hold their players it gives our team the ability to rush either OLB or drop back into coverage. Giving the team a lot of different looks and ability to confuse teams of who is doing what and when.


I think this what you mean but like i said i'm not to sure myself.

Click to expand...

Sean, I don't understand what it is you claim to be watching when you discount Warren's play. Having made the effort last season to try and break down TV broadcasts using Tivo, I thought Warren was the best DL we had over the first half of the season and probably as late as the KC game. Seymour didn't begin dominating until the second half of the KC game, other then a strong game against Pittsburgh. Wilfork was getting his clock cleaned up until around week 10-11 when he was moved as much as a yard back from the line. Frankly, it is easier for me to recall Warren splitting double teams and forcing the play, then it is Seymour; and Vince was getting turned around by double teams consistently, when he wasn't getting pancaked by the Center.

Regarding BBF's initial question: you consistently see our DLs lock on and try to control the OL across from them (both tackles and the center). They are reading the blocking techniques and looking into the backfield for the runner.

A play designed to go into the 'a' gap between C and RG will have the C trying to get inside Wilfork on Vince's left shoulder and turn him or hold him long enough for the LG to come around and get inside Vince, freeing the C to release to the next level. The RG usually comes out for the RILB and the C releasing off the double team gets the LILB trying to come over and help or a S coming up to fill.

Another option would be for the RG and C to double Vince, long enough for the C to get the inside position on Vince's left shoulder, then the RG would release into the LBs. The LG or a TE might pull and lead through the hole either doubling Warren or looking for a LB.

Early in the season, Vince would bull his way into the C driving to plug the hole and create a huge cutback gap for the RB. Once Vince started staying home and controlling the C, teams had to keep a G on him to create a crease for the runner, which made it easier for the unblocked ILBs to fill the hole.

Box_O_Rocks said:

Regarding BBF's initial question: you consistently see our DLs lock on and try to control the OL across from them (both tackles and the center). They are reading the blocking techniques and looking into the backfield for the runner.

A play designed to go into the 'a' gap between C and RG will have the C trying to get inside Wilfork on Vince's left shoulder and turn him or hold him long enough for the LG to come around and get inside Vince, freeing the C to release to the next level. The RG usually comes out for the RILB and the C releasing off the double team gets the LILB trying to come over and help or a S coming up to fill.

Another option would be for the RG and C to double Vince, long enough for the C to get the inside position on Vince's left shoulder, then the RG would release into the LBs. The LG or a TE might pull and lead through the hole either doubling Warren or looking for a LB.

Early in the season, Vince would bull his way into the C driving to plug the hole and create a huge cutback gap for the RB. Once Vince started staying home and controlling the C, teams had to keep a G on him to create a crease for the runner, which made it easier for the unblocked ILBs to fill the hole.

Click to expand...

excellent granularity

I see big things from Green from an elephant position and a +10lbs Beisel in the middle this season. Vince, Ty and Sey are going to have monster years. And I can't even believe that I have to mention these guys before Tedy, Rosey and Vrabes!! WOW what a mix we have up front... :rocker: