Lavar Arrington a Patriot?

AndyJohnson said:

So your argument is we should sign him because if we sign him that means BB thinks he is good????
Thats a pretty circular argument.

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My argument is that if BB believes he can addn LA, and then utilize him in such a way that it'll be worth what it cost to sign him, then I'm all for it because he knows this biz much better than I do.

Who am I, or anyone for that matter, to say otherwise?

AndyJohnson said:

Are you honestly telling me Arrington deserved to go to pro-bowls?
You think 22.5 sacks in 6 years is good?

Check out what Willie McG did. Its miles ahead of Arrington.

If Arrington isnt a bust why did his team bench him? Why did they not want him at this age? Why does he have 1 sack in thye last 2 years?

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Andy, I respect you as one who has for a longtime brought much excellent insight to you posts, but in this thread I feel you are being more than a bit disingenuous with implying that he was benched because of performance.

I live in MD and EVERYONE here knows that was done as a vendetta from the estimable Mr. Snyder. When your employer is being sued by you for $6million and is being called a liar by you, and when the FO is e-mailing local journalists before the season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/nunyo_demasio/03/08/arrington/1.html

"Under the agreement, if Arrington made the Pro Bowl in two of the next four years, he could become a free agent unless Washington paid $3.25 million -- half the disputed money. So at the very least, this official seemed to indicate the team would let Arrington depart, regardless of whether he flourished. At the most, something beyond X's was occurring at Redskins Park. Why would someone close to Snyder not want his star player to succeed? And how brash -- or reckless -- was it to e-mail a reporter, even if there was an understanding that the sender wouldn't be quoted?

So when Arrington went from being Mr. Redskin to Mr. Irrelevant last season, the e-mail stuck in my mind."

There is so much else in that article that those of us here in the DC area have seen the past few years. Please read it.

This is a very mature, thoughtful and talented individual who, with the right system can fit in and take the Patriots defense (with that DL in front of him!) to an incredible level.

I think Arrington would be a fine addition to the Patriots. Funny how some are poo-poohing this potential signing, but Caldwell was a great signing? You want to talk bust? Take a look at Caldwell....

AndyJohnson said:

Are you honestly telling me Arrington deserved to go to pro-bowls?
You think 22.5 sacks in 6 years is good?

Check out what Willie McG did. Its miles ahead of Arrington.

If Arrington isnt a bust why did his team bench him? Why did they not want him at this age? Why does he have 1 sack in thye last 2 years?

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Injuries in 2004 and hardly played last year because he fell out of favor with Greg Williams. Seems like a likely reason to me, you have to be on the field to get sacks, correct?

Through willies first five season's (he missed 4 games in 97 and 7 in 98, so that is comparable to Arrington's first 4 season's) he had 260 tackles and 30.5 sacks games played 68

Through Arrington's first 4 seasons he had 334 tackles and 21.5 sacks games played 62.

How was Willie miles ahead of him?

shmessy said:

Andy, I respect you as one who has for a longtime brought much excellent insight to you posts, but in this thread I feel you are being more than a bit disingenuous with implying that he was benched because of performance.

I live in MD and EVERYONE here knows that was done as a vendetta from the estimable Mr. Snyder. When your employer is being sued by you for $6million and is being called a liar by you, and when the FO is e-mailing local journalists before the season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/nunyo_demasio/03/08/arrington/1.html

"Under the agreement, if Arrington made the Pro Bowl in two of the next four years, he could become a free agent unless Washington paid $3.25 million -- half the disputed money. So at the very least, this official seemed to indicate the team would let Arrington depart, regardless of whether he flourished. At the most, something beyond X's was occurring at Redskins Park. Why would someone close to Snyder not want his star player to succeed? And how brash -- or reckless -- was it to e-mail a reporter, even if there was an understanding that the sender wouldn't be quoted?

So when Arrington went from being Mr. Redskin to Mr. Irrelevant last season, the e-mail stuck in my mind."

There is so much else in that article that those of us here in the DC area have seen the past few years. Please read it.

This is a very mature, thoughtful and talented individual who, with the right system can fit in and take the Patriots defense (with that DL in front of him!) to an incredible level.

Click to expand...

I forgot about the Snyder deal, I generally don't read much news from the Post because their entire Sports section has ron borges syndrome for Dan Snyder.

They way he handled himself in the media throughout the entire situation, was very respectable.

Does anyone remember the play when he was at Penn. State and he jumped OVER the offensive lineman?

Bobs My Uncle said:

My argument is that if BB believes he can addn LA, and then utilize him in such a way that it'll be worth what it cost to sign him, then I'm all for it because he knows this biz much better than I do.

Who am I, or anyone for that matter, to say otherwise?

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Well you could use that for any player. It seems you were touting Arrington not saying he is a non-descript player and BB will do whats best.
That would be offering no opinion on the player, but an opinion that BB knows all.

That seems different than what you did, comparing him to LT and all.

mgcolby said:

Injuries in 2004 and hardly played last year because he fell out of favor with Greg Williams. Seems like a likely reason to me, you have to be on the field to get sacks, correct?

Through willies first five season's (he missed 4 games in 97 and 7 in 98, so that is comparable to Arrington's first 4 season's) he had 260 tackles and 30.5 sacks games played 68

Through Arrington's first 4 seasons he had 334 tackles and 21.5 sacks games played 62.

How was Willie miles ahead of him?

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Umm, Arrington has played 6 seaons.
Do the last 2 simply not count because they dont support your argument?

How is 'falling out of favor' with coaches a positive excuse?

We do realize that he was benched because he wouldnt carry out his assignment on play calls, right?

shmessy said:

Andy, I respect you as one who has for a longtime brought much excellent insight to you posts, but in this thread I feel you are being more than a bit disingenuous with implying that he was benched because of performance.

I live in MD and EVERYONE here knows that was done as a vendetta from the estimable Mr. Snyder. When your employer is being sued by you for $6million and is being called a liar by you, and when the FO is e-mailing local journalists before the season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/nunyo_demasio/03/08/arrington/1.html

"Under the agreement, if Arrington made the Pro Bowl in two of the next four years, he could become a free agent unless Washington paid $3.25 million -- half the disputed money. So at the very least, this official seemed to indicate the team would let Arrington depart, regardless of whether he flourished. At the most, something beyond X's was occurring at Redskins Park. Why would someone close to Snyder not want his star player to succeed? And how brash -- or reckless -- was it to e-mail a reporter, even if there was an understanding that the sender wouldn't be quoted?

So when Arrington went from being Mr. Redskin to Mr. Irrelevant last season, the e-mail stuck in my mind."

There is so much else in that article that those of us here in the DC area have seen the past few years. Please read it.

This is a very mature, thoughtful and talented individual who, with the right system can fit in and take the Patriots defense (with that DL in front of him!) to an incredible level.

Click to expand...

I accept your side of it. I just do not agree.
All the articles in the world won't convince me that when the Redskins were on a playoff run, and Joe Gibbs benched him, that it has to do with anything but performance. And his on the field play has not been good prior to that.

We are on opposite sides.
I choose not to accept explanations. You choose to, and feel very highly about him.

Thats fine. This is a gray area, and one of us is right and one is wrong, but we will not know until he goes somewhere.

Do you dispute by the way, that Arrington purposely refused to carry out his assignments? If Im not mistaken he said that himself. For me, thats the beginning and end of the story.

AndyJohnson said:

Umm, Arrington has played 6 seaons.
Do the last 2 simply not count because they dont support your argument?

How is 'falling out of favor' with coaches a positive excuse?

We do realize that he was benched because he wouldnt carry out his assignment on play calls, right?

Click to expand...

Umm he missed 12 games in 2004 and barely played last year, I used comparable seasons with Willie who was "miles ahead of him" which included 6 more games played and he had 9 more sacks. That is not exactly "miles ahead".

What do you know about Arrington other then what you heard or read about last season? Obviously nothing, if you think he is a bad locker room guy or undisciplined. The guy was the toast of DC for 4 years and then he gets benched his first healthy season after that. But he did manage to get some playing time during the playoffs in some pretty big situations, but that is an understandable thing to do for a guy who blows assignments all the time!
Face it, you don't like him because of the perception about him and to call him a bust is a flat out joke.

What is the problem here? Arrington is a good player who could really benefit being on the patriots. A lesson should have been learned by all patriot fans today. The patriots are looking for players to help them win the next championship, not keep players who have already won with them. Lesson learned is the Patriots believe they will be better off in the long run without Adam than with him.
That being said Arrington is a young player, who has a lot of talent. He fits the mold of a player you can win with today and tomorrow.
Did you see the Washington Redskins playoff game this year when he had 10+ tackles? He was all over the place.

As somone already pointed out, the patriots philosphy isn't about stats. Look at Mike Vrabel his first four years in the league. Couldn't sniff the field and now he is a field general for the patriots. The pats saw something in him and believed and made the move for him..

With that being said, I don't believe the Pats will sign him. Would I like to see him come here, sure.. I think he could really benefit playing in a 3-4 with Seymour and Wilfork infront of him. But again I think the Pats are going to reload in the draft and wait for the second wave of free agents (players cut, like Moulds) to make a play..

mgcolby said:

Umm he missed 12 games in 2004 and barely played last year, I used comparable seasons with Willie who was "miles ahead of him" which included 6 more games played and he had 9 more sacks. That is not exactly "miles ahead".

What do you know about Arrington other then what you heard or read about last season? Obviously nothing, if you think he is a bad locker room guy or undisciplined. The guy was the toast of DC for 4 years and then he gets benched his first healthy season after that. But he did manage to get some playing time during the playoffs in some pretty big situations, but that is an understandable thing to do for a guy who blows assignments all the time!
Face it, you don't like him because of the perception about him and to call him a bust is a flat out joke.

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I agree, a bust would be Ryan Leaf or Andrea Wadsworth

AndyJohnson said:

Well you could use that for any player. It seems you were touting Arrington not saying he is a non-descript player and BB will do whats best.
That would be offering no opinion on the player, but an opinion that BB knows all.

That seems different than what you did, comparing him to LT and all.

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I think it's obvious that I was comparing the two players style of play (specifically that neither are keen on adhering to a particular scheme) and not what they have done on the field performance wise. I'm not sure I could compare any LB's performance to LT's.

If the Pats don't sign him, it will have nothing to do with his performance with the Redskins and everything to do with his contract demands. The Giants backed off because of his salary demands, which was IIRC a signing bonus in the neighborhood of 12 million and 5 million per year salary.

AndyJohnson said:

I accept your side of it. I just do not agree.
All the articles in the world won't convince me that when the Redskins were on a playoff run, and Joe Gibbs benched him, that it has to do with anything but performance. And his on the field play has not been good prior to that.

We are on opposite sides.
I choose not to accept explanations. You choose to, and feel very highly about him.

Thats fine. This is a gray area, and one of us is right and one is wrong, but we will not know until he goes somewhere.

Do you dispute by the way, that Arrington purposely refused to carry out his assignments? If Im not mistaken he said that himself. For me, thats the beginning and end of the story.

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Fair enough AJ.

Having watched him the past 6 years - I believe the first 4 he was in a "wild, wild west" organization with talented by undisciplined players like Deion Sanders, Big Daddy Wilkinson, Dana Stubblefield, etc. That gang was a baaaaadd influence on the young man.

He is an incredible athlete who plays the run incredibly well and can vcontrol the periphery with his great speed. He is also very smart and can be coached up in the right atmosphere (not the "wild west" of those first four years).

The past two years, well you and I will have to agree to disagree. In my view, the 2004 injury and DannyBoy taking the ball and going home does not give us a clear picture of the player.

In sum, 2 ProBowls in those first 4 years of actual play and the fact that he is only 27 and hasn't had a chance to play in a disciplined and successful system (remember, he didn't get onto the field much under Gregg Williams last year) gives him enormous upside.

dryheat44 said:

If the Pats don't sign him, it will have nothing to do with his performance with the Redskins and everything to do with his contract demands. The Giants backed off because of his salary demands, which was IIRC a signing bonus in the neighborhood of 12 million and 5 million per year salary.

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5 million per year is not that exorbitant at all.

Willie is getting $4 million.

I would shorten up the length of the contract to insure the team doesn't get burned, or backend it if it feeds someone's ego, but if he's going to cost me $6 million a year (including signing bonus) I may just do that.

shmessy said:

Fair enough AJ.

Having watched him the past 6 years - I believe the first 4 he was in a "wild, wild west" organization with talented by undisciplined players like Deion Sanders, Big Daddy Wilkinson, Dana Stubblefield, etc. That gang was a baaaaadd influence on the young man.

He is an incredible athlete who plays the run incredibly well and can vcontrol the periphery with his great speed. He is also very smart and can be coached up in the right atmosphere (not the "wild west" of those first four years).

The past two years, well you and I will have to agree to disagree. In my view, the 2004 injury and DannyBoy taking the ball and going home does not give us a clear picture of the player.

In sum, 2 ProBowls in those first 4 years of actual play and the fact that he is only 27 and hasn't had a chance to play in a disciplined and successful system (remember, he didn't get onto the field much under Gregg Williams last year) gives him enormous upside.

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Hey, Ive been wrong about players before, and Im sure you have too. Hell, BB has been.

We are just using different criteria. I am ALWAYS skeptical of the guy with great athletic skills that falters on the field. Regardless of the reasons, I put a lot of weight on that. No matter why he has been unproductive the last 2 years, to me he has been unproductive. Im not saying its the only critieria, but one I put a lot of weight on.

Add to this the fact that he wants huge money---basically wants to be paid as among the best LBs in the NFL--and the fact that he had personell issues with his former team, and I would walk away.

At the price it would take, every single question about him would have to be answered in his favor for it to be worthwhile. When discipline is involved that worries me. Consider this: he 'fell out of favor'. I believe he is responsible for not falling out of favor.

In the end we already have Colvin and Vrabel at the postion. I cant see spending what would probably be 7mill of cap space for the right to keep Vrabel inside. Is Arrington 7mill better than Vrabel? Id prefer to fill the ILB postion at a thrid of the cost, and not have to fear the issues he had in DC recur.

A side point. If we lacked talent, I may look differently at this.
IMO, we do not need elevate the starting talent level on this team, we simply need it to be more healthy, and have the depth be more reliable. Both have to happen because you only have so much depth.

I am perfectly fine with filling in the starting positions we have open with average quality players, and using the savings from that approach to pay more for depth.

I think based on the nucleus we have, if you add average starters to the holes, we have Championship caliber starters. The reason we didnt win last year was that we not only had a lot of injuires, but we were forced to throw poor players on the field.

In other words, our nucleus plus average players added across the board is a better team than if we add a few stars and skimp on depth (or those stars are injury prone)

AndyJohnson said:

Hey, Ive been wrong about players before, and Im sure you have too. Hell, BB has been.

We are just using different criteria. I am ALWAYS skeptical of the guy with great athletic skills that falters on the field. Regardless of the reasons, I put a lot of weight on that. No matter why he has been unproductive the last 2 years, to me he has been unproductive. Im not saying its the only critieria, but one I put a lot of weight on.

Add to this the fact that he wants huge money---basically wants to be paid as among the best LBs in the NFL--and the fact that he had personell issues with his former team, and I would walk away.

At the price it would take, every single question about him would have to be answered in his favor for it to be worthwhile. When discipline is involved that worries me. Consider this: he 'fell out of favor'. I believe he is responsible for not falling out of favor.

In the end we already have Colvin and Vrabel at the postion. I cant see spending what would probably be 7mill of cap space for the right to keep Vrabel inside. Is Arrington 7mill better than Vrabel? Id prefer to fill the ILB postion at a thrid of the cost, and not have to fear the issues he had in DC recur.

A side point. If we lacked talent, I may look differently at this.
IMO, we do not need elevate the starting talent level on this team, we simply need it to be more healthy, and have the depth be more reliable. Both have to happen because you only have so much depth.

I am perfectly fine with filling in the starting positions we have open with average quality players, and using the savings from that approach to pay more for depth.

I think based on the nucleus we have, if you add average starters to the holes, we have Championship caliber starters. The reason we didnt win last year was that we not only had a lot of injuires, but we were forced to throw poor players on the field.

In other words, our nucleus plus average players added across the board is a better team than if we add a few stars and skimp on depth (or those stars are injury prone)

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Fair enough, and I respect your opinion, however I just have one name to add to argument. And that is the owner of the Redskins.

Dan Snyder.

One must add into the whole equation the party with whom Arrington was struggling.

nickw308810 said:

Does anyone remember the play when he was at Penn. State and he jumped OVER the offensive lineman?

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Yes, it was absolutely amazing. Since his time in college, I have been a huge fan of Lavar Arrington. He is one of my favorite players in the NFL and I would be ecstatic if we could get him. He is an explosive game changing impact player. With Belichick's sound coaching, he could get the most out of the incredible talent that Arrington possesses.

shmessy said:

Fair enough, and I respect your opinion, however I just have one name to add to argument. And that is the owner of the Redskins.

Dan Snyder.

One must add into the whole equation the party with whom Arrington was struggling.

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OK. How many other players have underperformed because of Dan Snyder?
I just dont see a trend of players trying to get away from him. In fact I see a trend of players wanting to work for him.

If Arrington is an angel, and Snyder smeared him, would there be other examples Im not aware of?