Dan Shaughnessy: Biggest douche bag of them all?

Pape said:

So by that standard both Chuck Fairbanks and Bill Parcells are both absolved of dealing with other teams...

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It's not an accurate equivalency, as has been pointed out already.

As a lifelong Patriots fan who loved Chuck and didn't appreciate Parcells until many years later, honestly, yes.

Both guys were compelled to do what they did. Now, everything blew up in Chuck's face. Not the best PR guy. But the similarity in both cases is striking. Shortly after winning a division title, they can't get out of here fast enough.

But, coaches do this. Were our chances vs. Houston and Green Bay damaged? Yeah. But those guys got us there. Just like Bill & Tom got us here.

Actual Pats Fan said:

It's not an accurate equivalency, as has been pointed out already.

As a lifelong Patriots fan who loved Chuck and didn't appreciate Parcells until many years later, honestly, yes.

Both guys were compelled to do what they did. Now, everything blew up in Chuck's face. Not the best PR guy. But the similarity in both cases is striking. Shortly after winning a division title, they can't get out of here fast enough.

But, coaches do this. Were our chances vs. Houston and Green Bay damaged? Yeah. But those guys got us there. Just like Bill & Tom got us here.

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and all were called ass holes and lambasted for doing so.

Ring 6 said:

The infamous “well I was upset” defense.

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It's not a defense.

Football - and life - are emotional. I think both guys did not prioritize winning.

Like the vast majority of their colleagues.

Pape said:

what proof? What could a poster on a message board have by the way of proof that would satisfy you? I dont have access to internal Patriot or dolphin documents ... I dont have access to bradys inner circle... i dont have access to anything besides that which is printed in blogs, columns and papers... and on the league report...

"The investigators found tampering violations of unprecedented scope and severity,” commissioner Roger Goodell said in a statement. “I know of no prior instance of a team violating the prohibition on tampering with both a head coach and star player, to the potential detriment of multiple other clubs, over a period of several years."

"Those communications began as early as August 2019 and continued throughout the 2019 season and post-season. These numerous and detailed discussions were conducted by Mr. Beal, who in turn kept Mr. Ross and other Dolphins executives informed of his discussions with Mr. Brady"

What more do you need to see? Conclusions drawn are based on conjecture... we connect the dots based on what happened as new information emerges... and that miami bombshell of a ruling should be all the proof a person needs to draw a credible conclusion.

So yeah, its disingenuous at best (aka moving the goal posts) to ask for proof when you know damn well know that there is no "proof" beyond whats been released.

**** move brady

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I mean I wouldn’t make an assertion of a major wrongdoing without any evidence to back it up and base it all on speculation and my feelings.

Pape said:

So by that standard both Chuck Fairbanks and Bill Parcells are absolved for the crime of dealing with other teams...

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Is Bill Belichick?

lancerman said:

I mean I wouldn’t make an assertion of a major wrongdoing without any evidence to back it up and base it all on speculation and my feelings.

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the league report quite literally says it all.

Thats proof.

lancerman said:

Is Bill Belichick?

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is Bill Belichick what?

lancerman said:

I mean I wouldn’t make an assertion of a major wrongdoing without any evidence to back it up and base it all on speculation and my feelings.

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We appreciate your interest in working for the National Football League, however we are unable to accept your application for employment.

Actual Pats Fan said:

It's not a defense.

Football - and life - are emotional. I think both guys did not prioritize winning.

Like the vast majority of their colleagues.

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Life is supposed to include integrity. When you sign a contract and violate it, “emotion” is an excuse.


Who are you saying didn’t prioritize winning?

Pape said:

the league report quite literally says it all.

Thats proof.

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No. It says the Dolphins did something wrong. Brady is not contractually beholden to not speak with other teams. Your first argument was about your contract. You were wrong on that.

You moved the goal posts and said it was detrimental to the team. When I asked you how, you said it was because he was no longer a Patriot. You have since provided no evidence besides speculation that his talk with Miami had any impact on him not staying. You in fact got upset that I dared to ask for evidence of your claim,

That’s not proof.

lancerman said:

No. It says the Dolphins did something wrong. Brady is not contractually beholden to not speak with other teams. Your first argument was about your contract. You were wrong on that.

You moved the goal posts and said it was detrimental to the team. When I asked you how, you said it was because he was no longer a Patriot. You have since provided no evidence besides speculation that his talk with Miami had any impact on him not staying. You in fact got upset that I dared to ask for evidence of your claim,

That’s not proof.

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His contract prohibits what he did. That is indisputable.

Pape said:

is Bill Belichick what?

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if you are going to complain about Fairbanks, Parcells and Brady for talking to other teams…. well surely you must be upset Belichick talked to our team when he was under contract with Jets. Are you angry with his moral character as well for him taking the parameters of his future employment in his own hands? Are you pissed at how he became our coach?

Or is there some convenient excuse that makes that situation different?

lancerman said:

No. It says the Dolphins did something wrong. Brady is not contractually beholden to not speak with other teams. Your first argument was about your contract. You were wrong on that.

You moved the goal posts and said it was detrimental to the team. When I asked you how, you said it was because he was no longer a Patriot. You have since provided no evidence besides speculation that his talk with Miami had any impact on him not staying. You in fact got upset that I dared to ask for evidence of your claim,

That’s not proof.

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so Im wrong that Brady and the dolphins had multiple converstaions starting in at least august of 2019, with the conversations persisting thru to post season? and you think that these dealings had zero net affect on Bradys relationship with the Patriots? wow. I am completely stunned by your .... logic...

As for goal posts, i realize you might be smarting a bit over that one... so you are trying to throw that back in my face... but, sorry to say, I didnt move any goal posts, because I never set any. I have repeatedly stated that Brady talked to the dolphins multiple times over the course of 2019. Its not speculation. Its a fact. Period. Eod of Story. It is immutable. The league investigation determined that, not me. So what goal posts have I moved? None. I suggest you educate yourself on what that phrase actually means before trying to use in in an argument... Me saying Brady not resigning with the Patriots after being tampered with is incredibly on point with the facts as we know them... It is not, in practice or effect, moving the goal posts... It is a quite logical conclusion based on the facts at hand...

and Man you have finally arrived at the ludicrous speed part of your post with this one "Brady is not contractually beholden to not speak with other teams" WTF lol, OF COURSE BRADY IS CONTRACTUALLY OBLIGATED TO REFRAIN FROM DEALING WITH OTHER FRANCHISES WHILE UNDER CONTRACT. Thats the whole point of having contracts ... Its what a contract is for - to retain the exclusive services of a player.

Im sorry but how mofo dumb do you have to be to think otherwise??? And that is a serious question...

lancerman said:

if you are going to complain about Fairbanks, Parcells and Brady for talking to other teams…. well surely you must be upset Belichick talked to our team when he was under contract with Jets. Are you angry with his moral character as well for him taking the parameters of his future employment in his own hands? Are you pissed at how he became our coach?

Or is there some convenient excuse that makes that situation different?

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Did he though? Whats your proof? J/K dont care.

Ultimately, the Patriots recieved permission from the jete/Parcells to talk to Belichick about their head coaching position... and a proper trade agreement was established... the jete a first round, 4th and a 7th round draft pick for BB + a 5th and 7th.

So am I angry with BB for doing that? Hell no I'm not... Im a mother ****ing homer, and it benefited my team...

If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it... I can live with that... because Go Pats!

Too bad your "I joined the bandwagon in 2001 and left in 2018" pink hat wearing head will never understand that.

Actual Pats Fan said:

Tom Brady's human. He's got a lot of admirable character and behavioral traits. Any notions I might have had that he's 'perfect' disappeared when he kept doing the Monday Morning Quarterback show on EEI when he became the starter regardless of the verbal sewage being spewed before and after.

Tom towed the line for two decades here. Maybe the team wasn't directly responsible for him being dragged into court and having his consecutive starts record aborted (not gonna get into Bob's complicity with the false laughingstock narrative etc. right now). He was pissed about Harry. He moved on.

I do not blame Tom for talking to somebody on the phone any more than I blame Bill for having some of his guys in a location at Giants Stadium in the first half of the first game of a season in a location which might piss off the other team's coach.

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It wasn't just a phone call.


And it wasn't just one "communication":

The investigation, led by former U.S. Attorney and SEC chair Mary Jo White and lawyers from the Debevoise law firm, found that Dolphins’ vice chairman and partner Bruce Beal had “numerous and detailed discussions” with Brady in 2019 and ’20. The league says the communications began as early as August ’19, while Brady was under contract with the Patriots, and continued through the season and postseason. Beal kept owner Stephen Ross and other Dolphins executives informed of these conversations.

Source: NFL Finds Dolphins Had ‘Impermissible’ Contact With Tom Brady in 2019, ’21 - Sports Illustrated

Hyped said:

Shaughnessy....he's a pot stirrer all right...but he does write compelling stuff from time to time. When it comes to the Patriots...I take his columns with a grain of salt...but the man knows the Red Sox though...

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He oughta know them well… They’re his employer, after all…

Pape said:

so Im wrong that Brady and the dolphins had multiple converstaions starting in at least august of 2019, with the conversations persisting thru to post season? and you think that these dealings had zero net affect on Bradys relationship with the Patriots? wow. I am completely stunned by your .... logic...

As for goal posts, i realize you might be smarting a bit over that one... so you are trying to throw that back in my face... but, sorry to say, I didnt move any goal posts, because I never set any. I have repeatedly stated that Brady talked to the dolphins multiple times over the course of 2019. Its not speculation. Its a fact. Period. Eod of Story. It is immutable. The league investigation determined that, not me. So what goal posts have I moved? None. I suggest you educate yourself on what that phrase actually means before trying to use in in an argument... Me saying Brady not resigning with the Patriots after being tampered with is incredibly on point with the facts as we know them... It is not, in practice or effect, moving the goal posts... It is a quite logical conclusion based on the facts at hand...

and Man you have finally arrived at the ludicrous speed part of your post with this one "Brady is not contractually beholden to not speak with other teams" WTF lol, OF COURSE BRADY IS CONTRACTUALLY OBLIGATED TO REFRAIN FROM DEALING WITH OTHER FRANCHISES WHILE UNDER CONTRACT. Thats the whole point of having contracts ... Its what a contract is for - to retain the exclusive services of a player.

Im sorry but how mofo dumb do you have to be to think otherwise??? And that is a serious question...

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What makes you think Brady didn't already make up his mind to leave well before he talked to the Dolphins. He literally set everything up so that there would be no barriers to leave for the first time in his career at the end of the season. He said himself he knew he likely wasn't going to sign with the Patriots again at the end of the year. He didn't even sign with the Dolphins. So again no proof of what you are saying.

Also yes the league determined Brady talked to the Dolpgins. That's a fact. It doesn't proved your other points.

1. The league did not determine Brady talking to the Dolphins was in violation of his contract. Thats a fact. Period. End of Story. It is immutable.
2. The league did not decide what Brady did merited any punishment on his end. That's a fact. Period. End of Story. It is immutable.
3. The league does not say anywhere in any players contract it is against the rules for them to contact another team. The rule is for the teams to follow themselves. That's a fact. Period. End of Story. It is immutable.
4. The league in their investigation did not determine that Brady talking to the Dolphins prevented him from signing with the Patriots nor did it determine it was a detriment to the Patriots success that season. That's a fact. Period. End of Story. It is immutable.

So if you are going to cling to the league investigation, all my points go with it. The league does not maintain that players are beholden to not speak with other teams. No player has ever been found to be held to any standard on that. It's something you are inferring based off... feelings.

Sounds like you are just mad Brady flirted with other teams and want to vent.

Pape said:

Did he though? Whats your proof? J/K dont care.

Ultimately, the Patriots recieved permission from the jete/Parcells to talk to Belichick about their head coaching position... and a proper trade agreement was established... the jete a first round, 4th and a 7th round draft pick for BB + a 5th and 7th.

So am I angry with BB for doing that? Hell no I'm not... Im a mother ****ing homer, and it benefited my team...

If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it... I can live with that... because Go Pats!

Too bad your "I joined the bandwagon in 2001 and left in 2018" pink hat wearing head will never understand that.

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Yeah no ****. That's my point. You are a homer. You can't seperate blind fandom to the fact that some fans can enjoy the team and not act like sycophants to everything about them and view anything that isn't fluffing them as evil.

Btw I've been a Pats fan well before Brady and I followed them every year he has been gone. So again, if you need to make up strawman's about people to boost your argument, maybe reflect on that.

lancerman said:

Yeah no ****. That's my point. You are a homer. You can't seperate blind fandom to the fact that some fans can enjoy the team and not act like sycophants to everything about them and view anything that isn't fluffing them as evil.

Btw I've been a Pats fan well before Brady and I followed them every year he has been gone. So again, if you need to make up strawman's about people to boost your argument, maybe reflect on that.

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Better a homer than an apologist.

lancerman said:

What makes you think Brady didn't already make up his mind to leave well before he talked to the Dolphins. He literally set everything up so that there would be no barriers to leave for the first time in his career at the end of the season. He said himself he knew he likely wasn't going to sign with the Patriots again at the end of the year. He didn't even sign with the Dolphins. So again no proof of what you are saying.

Also yes the league determined Brady talked to the Dolpgins. That's a fact. It doesn't proved your other points.

1. The league did not determine Brady talking to the Dolphins was in violation of his contract. Thats a fact. Period. End of Story. It is immutable.
2. The league did not decide what Brady did merited any punishment on his end. That's a fact. Period. End of Story. It is immutable.
3. The league does not say anywhere in any players contract it is against the rules for them to contact another team. The rule is for the teams to follow themselves. That's a fact. Period. End of Story. It is immutable.
4. The league in their investigation did not determine that Brady talking to the Dolphins prevented him from signing with the Patriots nor did it determine it was a detriment to the Patriots success that season. That's a fact. Period. End of Story. It is immutable.

So if you are going to cling to the league investigation, all my points go with it. The league does not maintain that players are beholden to not speak with other teams. No player has ever been found to be held to any standard on that. It's something you are inferring based off... feelings.

Sounds like you are just mad Brady flirted with other teams and want to vent.

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"cling to the league investigation"? lol ... Pointing out that the league what the league knows, and the fact that they felt the need to hammer the fins/ross/beal over "just tampering everyone does it" says more about that than I ever could...

You do realize that its literally meaningless where Brady ultimately signed, right? He deliberately had multiple conversations with the fins ... that alone works as a detriment of the Patriots... Whether or not he re-signed here, or left as he did is irrelevant - its still a **** move on his part.

and finally, the league does indeed maintain that, and thats why both the contracts and the cba spell out the bounds of free agency ... its in the player contracts... Read the CBA - there is a copy of the standard contract in it... its all in black and white, easy to read... and as it furthers my point, just because he could do something without penalty, doesn't mean he should...

it was a **** move by Tom Brady who is ultimately proving that he has no character beyond achieving his own desires... that he has no honor... that he's just another selfish narcissistic athlete...

Pape said:

Better a homer than an apologist.




"cling to the league investigation"? lol ... Pointing out that the league what the league knows, and the fact that they felt the need to hammer the fins/ross/beal over "just tampering everyone does it" says more about that than I ever could...

You do realize that its literally meaningless where Brady ultimately signed, right? He deliberately had multiple conversations with the fins ... that alone works as a detriment of the Patriots... Whether or not he re-signed here, or left as he did is irrelevant - its still a **** move on his part.

and finally, the league does indeed maintain that, and thats why both the contracts and the cba spell out the bounds of free agency ... its in the player contracts... Read the CBA - there is a copy of the standard contract in it... its all in black and white, easy to read... and as it furthers my point, just because he could do something without penalty, doesn't mean he should...

it was a **** move by Tom Brady who is ultimately proving that he has no character beyond achieving his own desires... that he has no honor... that he's just another selfish narcissistic athlete...

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Okay I can't do this anymore. Have fun being mad at a player because he left the team.