So how do you grade this year’s draft?

MAC10 said:

Scar's take on the Cole Pick...basically he says not to underestimate Belichick and drafting offensive linemen

Dante Scarnecchia shares thoughts on Patriots selecting Cole Strange

Dante Scarnecchia has optimism for Cole Strange.

patriotswire.usatoday.com

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Barring injury or total mental breakdown Strange is going to a beast on the interior. If you have two QB's that are pocket passers, then you had better keep that pocket clean, if you want to run the ball, you had better be able to blast open holes. Anyone deriding this pick as “bad” is clueless.

Wozzy said:

They had that money in 2021 partly because they moved on from Brady in 2020 and cleared a bunch of cap and dead cap. You can have one or the other, you can't have both.

Tom wasn't hanging around for a rebuild at 43 year's old... nor should he.

It was the right move for both sides. Let it go.

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You said partly though, What if they extended him like he wanted? The Tampa deal doesnt hinder the Patriots much at all. 2020 sure, 2021 and beyond? They didnt gain 160$ mil gtd because of Brady.

I am very much over it, but it was a pretty major thing to happen to the franchise! I understand that its probably been done a million times here, being new I lose sight of that!

Wozzy said:

He had Tom for 20 of the 27 years he coached, the majority of the 7 years he didn't were the first years of both teams he coached... he was turning a dumpster fire around, flipping a roster.

Comparing what a GM/Coach does to a what a free agent player does is silly.

A player can leave to a contender and win instantly. A GM inherits a disaster and it takes multiple seasons to clean it up. Look at the first 2-3 years of most of the great coaches in history... those are losing seasons where they are getting their culture, systems and players in place.

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I think hes coached 9 years without Tom? I could be wrong though. When you said winning is hard, I agree. It just was all that much easier when Brady was his qb.

All3Phases said:

You said partly though, What if they extended him like he wanted? The Tampa deal doesnt hinder the Patriots much at all. 2020 sure, 2021 and beyond? They didnt gain 160$ mil gtd because of Brady.

I am very much over it, but it was a pretty major thing to happen to the franchise! I understand that its probably been done a million times here, being new I lose sight of that!

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There’s no tax shelter in the Bahamas for salary cap. They won three rings from 2014-2019 partly because Tom agreed to take less money in short one year extensions and because the team did what they avoided in the two decades prior in the dynasty… they “went all in” and kicked cap debt down the road. They borrowed from future cap to “win now.”

As a Pat’s fans we either accept and enjoy those four Super Bowls and three wins and the sacrifice it took to win them… or we wish we could have signed Tom to a long term deal and had competitive but not dominant teams like we had from 2005-2013… where we came close but no cigar.

It’s not coincidence we won three rings when Tom was paid like a 6th round rookie and won 3 more at the end of his Patriot career when he was taking less and the team was committing more.

I’ll take the rings, I don’t give a damn about sentimentality. Fans don’t understand the cap, I get that, but it exists all the same.

Wozzy said:

There’s no tax shelter in the Bahamas for salary cap. They won three rings from 2014-2019 partly because Tom agreed to take less money in short one year extensions and because the team did what they avoided in the two decades prior in the dynasty… they “went all in” and kicked cap debt down the road. They borrowed from future cap to “win now.”

As a Pat’s fans we either accept and enjoy those four Super Bowls and three wins and the sacrifice it took to win them… or we wish we could have signed Tom to a long term deal and had competitive but not dominant teams like we had from 2005-2013… where we came close but no cigar.

It’s not coincidence we won three rings when Tom was paid like a 6th round rookie and won 3 more at the end of his Patriot career when he was taking less and the team was committing more.

I’ll take the rings, I don’t give a damn about sentimentality.

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Not sure how this really answers my question, but we can end it there!

All3Phases said:

I think hes coached 9 years without Tom? I could be wrong though. When you said winning is hard, I agree. It just was all that much easier when Brady was his qb.

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It was easier when he switched from Bernie Kosar to Vinnie Testeverde also… and Vinnie wasn’t great. Better players usually leads to better results. Brady provided top shelf QB play for two decades. He’s not the only great QB in the league. Mac or Zappe could end up being great.

All3Phases said:

Not sure how this really answers my question, but we can end it there!

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You accept the 3 rings won on dominant teams or you take Brady on lesser teams… you can’t have both.

The cap debt at the end of 2019 was accumulated debt from going all in from 2014-2019. That run only happened because they borrowed.

Wozzy said:

It was easier when he switched from Bernie Kosar to Vinnie Testeverde also… and Vinnie wasn’t great. Better players usually leads to better results. Brady provided top shelf QB play for two decades. He’s not the only great QB in the league. Mac or Zappe could end up being great.

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Very well could, but I could also just use your logic from your previous post. Its not a coincidence that they were mega successful with Brady playing quarterback, with a million things around him changing year in and year out vs now when "winning is hard"

Wozzy said:

You accept the 3 rings won on dominant teams or you take Brady on lesser teams… you can’t have both.

The cap debt at the end of 2019 was accumulated debt from going all in from 2014-2019. That run only happened because they borrowed.

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If they offered Brady the exact TB deal in 2020, whats their cap space like in 2021? How much of the $160 mil gtd could they spend in that offseason?

All3Phases said:

Very well could, but I could also just use your logic from your previous post. Its not a coincidence that they were mega successful with Brady playing quarterback, with a million things around him changing year in and year out vs now when "winning is hard"

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He was a good soldier for two decades, top flight QB play. He also sacrificed money at the end of the run which is true leadership… not BS lip service type leadership. He put his money where his mouth is. He has six rings from New England, 3 of them because he gave up a little. He might be salty about how it ended, maybe not.. but I don’t think he’d give up those three rings to change it… neither would I.

All3Phases said:

If they offered Brady the exact TB deal in 2020, whats their cap space like in 2021? How much of the $160 mil gtd could they spend in that offseason?

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They would have added 50 million plus the 13 in dead cap they already owed, and look at that 2020 roster. It wasn’t good. And if they signed Brady they couldn’t afford DMC and Thuney, or they would have to keep borrowing. They would have been a first round exit from the playoffs if they made them at all. And when Tom eventually left or retired they would be way worse off than they were in 2020.

Wozzy said:

They would have added 50 million plus the 13 in dead cap they already owed, and look at that 2020 roster. It wasn’t good. And if they signed Brady they couldn’t afford DMC and Thuney, or they would have to keep borrowing. They would have been a first round exit from the playoffs if they made them at all. And when Tom eventually left or retired they would be way worse off than they were in 2020.

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They didnt resign Thuney in 2021 anyway. Again, you are talking about 2020...I dont disagree they most likely wouldve been mediocre. Last I checked hes still playing at a high level no? What about 21, 22, etc? I am happy with the way things turned out, I just like to refute the point that the team wouldve suffered because of his contract going forward. They spent a ton of money last year, he wouldve been a fraction of it. Like you said 50 mil gtd over 2 years, that leaves 25 for 2021, they spent 160. Thats still a good amount of money to play with!

All3Phases said:

They didnt resign Thuney in 2021 anyway. Again, you are talking about 2020...I dont disagree they most likely wouldve been mediocre. Last I checked hes still playing at a high level no? What about 21, 22, etc? I am happy with the way things turned out, I just like to refute the point that the team wouldve suffered because of his contract going forward. They spent a ton of money last year, he wouldve been a fraction of it. Like you said 50 mil gtd over 2 years, that leaves 25 for 2021, they spent 160. Thats still a good amount of money to play with!

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They wanted to re-sign Thuney, he got too much money from KC.

They had that much money to spend in 2021 because they used 2020 as a cap clearing year. A quarter of their cap in 2020 was spent on Gilmore and 72 players no longer on the team. That was debt they pushed down the road in prior years.

You can have one or the other, you can’t have both.

I give it a big, old "Incomplete." If they'd had a top pick, I might view that differently.

But I will say that Bill Belichick has amassed a lot of capital in the form of Goodwill from us fans. I think he's drawing down on that account now. But he's earned my confidence for a couple more seasons. "In BB I Trust."

Wozzy said:

They wanted to re-sign Thuney, he got too much money from KC.

They had that much money to spend in 2021 because they used 2020 as a cap clearing year. A quarter of their cap in 2020 was spent on Gilmore and 72 players no longer on the team. That was debt they pushed down the road in prior years.

You can have one or the other, you can’t have both.

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But they didnt resign him, so you saying they couldnt have with Brady doesnt matter. They didnt with/without him.

And again, I can go along with your 2020 reasoning, theres no reason they couldnt have a majority of that money in 2021 with Brady on the roster. Clearing room in 2020 can happen with Brady on the roster as well.

My emotions (hope) get in the way of my analysis, which is just based on third and fourth hand reports anyway.
If the Pats hit in this draft like they did last year, and McGrone is what they drafted him to be, it's a new team from 2019. That'll be 8-9 players that step in with major roles and upgrade the teams performance remarkably.

All3Phases said:

But they didnt resign him, so you saying they couldnt have with Brady doesnt matter. They didnt with/without him.

And again, I can go along with your 2020 reasoning, theres no reason they couldnt have a majority of that money in 2021 with Brady on the roster.

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It would have mattered if they signed Brady and Thuney wasn’t there to play guard in 2020. It would have mattered a little less because they struck gold with Onwenu in the 6th round, but you can’t construct your roster under the assumption some 6th round rookie is going to work in protecting your 43 year old QB.

If you sign Brady in 2020 that means you’ve committed to winning, you’re going all in. Tom wasn’t going to stay for a rebuild and it wouldn’t be fair to ask him to. They let their entire LB unit leave then hired them back in 2021… that’s because they had no money in 2020. They lost like 12 starters and major contributors, it would have been more if they extended to sign Tom.

There’s no way around it, either they rebuild or keep borrowing, and by the end of 2019 borrowing more looked futile. They would have put themselves further in debt and would not have been good enough to win rings… which is the only goal.

For this to make sense one has the suspend the illusion that just having Tom makes you a contender… he doesn’t. Not in 2002 when he led the NFL in passing TD’s and they only won 9 games, not in all the other seasons they didn’t win a ring.

BTTA said:

My emotions (hope) get in the way of my analysis, which is just based on third and fourth hand reports anyway.
If the Pats hit in this draft like they did last year, and McGrone is what they drafted him to be, it's a new team from 2019. That'll be 8-9 players that step in with major roles and upgrade the teams performance remarkably.

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McGrone, Uche and Jennings have to step up in the LB room for the defense to be effective this season. Otherwise they need to cut bait and get better there next offseason.

Wozzy said:

It would have mattered if they signed Brady and Thuney wasn’t there to play guard in 2020. It would have mattered a little less because they struck gold with Onwenu in the 6th round, but you can’t construct your roster under the assumption some 6th round rookie is going to work in protecting your 43 year old QB.

If you sign Brady in 2020 that means you’ve committed to winning, you’re going all in. Tom wasn’t going to stay for a rebuild and it wouldn’t be fair to ask him to. They let their entire LB unit leave then hired them back in 2021… that’s because they had no money in 2020. They lost like 12 starters and major contributors, it would have been more if they extended to sign Tom.

There’s no way around it, either they rebuild or keep borrowing, and by the end of 2019 borrowing more looked futile. They would have put themselves further in debt and would not have been good enough to win rings… which is the only goal.

For this to make sense one has the suspend the illusion that just having Tom makes you a contender… he doesn’t. Not in 2002 when he led the NFL in passing TD’s and they only won 9 games, not in all the other seasons they didn’t win a ring.

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You keep talking about 2020, Im talking about 2021 and beyond. Thuney being there in 2020 didnt matter at all, they sucked and he wasnt there in 21, so having Brady in 2020 wouldnt have mattered for Thuneys future. You are under the assumption that Brady couldnt withstand 1 year of being possibly mediocre while the roster turns over. Thats an assumption, in 2021 they would have been fine roster wise, just like they were without him.

All3Phases said:

You keep talking about 2020, Im talking about 2021 and beyond. Thuney being there in 2020 didnt matter at all, they sucked and he wasnt there in 21, so having Brady in 2020 wouldnt have mattered for Thuneys future. You are under the assumption that Brady couldnt withstand 1 year of being possibly mediocre while the roster turns over. Thats an assumption, in 2021 they would have been fine roster wise, just like they were without him.

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The money in 2021 didn’t just appear out of thin air… they didn’t find it in a briefcase on the beach. The cap they owed on Gilmore in 2020 was more than the dead cap of Brady, AB and Bennett combined.

And it wasn’t written like that five years prior when Stephon signed that deal. His cap hit was massive because they reworked his contract to open up cap space in 2018 and 2019 so they could sign players at the trade deadline… players who at least in 2018 helped them win a ring. They did this with Tom’s contract, Gronk’s, Cannon’s contract and more.

Brady made the decision to leave, he was a free agent. And it was the right decision, for both player and team, which is what I said before Tom even said he was leaving. That they were up to their ears in cap debt and their team was old. It was time to cut the cord and rebuild.