Sad to see BB's legacy ripped apart like this

BradytoMosstoGronk said:

I took what captain was saying that he believes a handful of coaches are coaching better right now, obviously not that they're better coaches.

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I know what he meant, I was just asking for some names so we could add a little context to the discussion. He did that and actually came up with some good ones, which we already talked about a bit.

captain stone said:

#FireTheBelichicks

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Bro.

203Pat said:

I think overall he has been right more often than not but lately that hasn't been the case and that's why I think it's fair to wonder if Bill has lost his fastball. The poor drafting over the last 5 or so years. Letting Brady walk with no backup plan. Playing Cam down the stretch in a lost season and never even getting a look at Stidham. A reluctance to adapt to a more speed based defense. I mean we lost our three best players (Brady, Thuney, and Gilmore) in the last two years and all we have to show for it is a 6th round pick.

I know it may be sacrilege but at this point I would take Sean McVay and Sean McDermott over Bill. Both have proved they can rebuild a franchise and get to the postseason with multiple quarterbacks. Obviously that's not a real solution since both of them are employed elsewhere but if you asked me for two coaches who are better right now I would choose them.

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I've said this before but I would take McVay in a heartbeat. Offensive guy that knows how to coach the entire team.

203Pat said:

I think overall he has been right more often than not but lately that hasn't been the case and that's why I think it's fair to wonder if Bill has lost his fastball. The poor drafting over the last 5 or so years. Letting Brady walk with no backup plan. Playing Cam down the stretch in a lost season and never even getting a look at Stidham. A reluctance to adapt to a more speed based defense. I mean we lost our three best players (Brady, Thuney, and Gilmore) in the last two years and all we have to show for it is a 6th round pick.

I know it may be sacrilege but at this point I would take Sean McVay and Sean McDermott over Bill. Both have proved they can rebuild a franchise and get to the postseason with multiple quarterbacks. Obviously that's not a real solution since both of them are employed elsewhere but if you asked me for two coaches who are better right now I would choose them.

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We know about their issues drafting, although I do feel that did improve this year. On Brady, I honestly think he felt Brady wouldn't leave, otherwise, he probably would have been a little better prepared. On Stidham, I feel like something happened or was said that blew that opportunity for him. Otherwise, there was no reason not to play him down the stretch. Although, again, if they don't finish 7-9, we don't have Mac.

I think the Hightower situation was tough because he probably felt that with Hightower and Van Noy, they'd have two guys who were fairly athletic. Instead, that hasn't been the case and the drop off with Hightower has been a little surprising, so they'll definitely need to get younger. That's obviously an area of weakness that will need to improve, but even as bad as it's been, they've been in every game and we all know their record could be different save for a few plays.

On Belichick, I will also say this - we're only three seasons removed from a championship. If they address those issues and Mac takes a step forward, unlike most coaches who lose their starting QB, to have a season or two of misery and then end up right back contending, that's pretty unheard of. And he's earned enough clout that I still believe he deserves some benefit of the doubt before we really go there.

People can say what they want, but he knows how to both get back there and win, and that's an intangible that I think is going to be very, very hard to replace.

amfootball said:

I've said this before but I would take McVay in a heartbeat. Offensive guy that knows how to coach the entire team.

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Agreed. He showed up and immediately turned a team know for mediocrity and got Goff, who at that point was a healthy scratch as the number one overall pick for the first month of his rookie season, to take a huge leap forward in his first year with McVay. McVay was able to hide Goff's flaws enough to get him to a super bowl and now with a legitimate starting QB the Rams look to be in contention for of of the best teams in the conference again.

amfootball said:

I've said this before but I would take McVay in a heartbeat. Offensive guy that knows how to coach the entire team.

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I wonder if there’s any way we could lure him from la to be the heir when bb is done. Couple firsts would get it done?

Question that I really don't know much about: do any other coaches around the league have the HC/GM powers and overall control that BB has?

Impossible to say if any coach has made more right/wrong decisions because noone here knows 10% of what goes on in the building everyday.

If Mac pans out and we are perennial playoff contenders after one more year then Bill beats the all time win record, goes down as the goat, and no one ever thinks about that one Cam covid season or the year developing a rookie qb. Yet, some here would continue to primarily discuss every instance in which he made a **** decision and held the team back from even greater success.

I will say this, if it's true that Bill is making decisions at this time based on what makes him happiest (adding players and coaches that he simply likes) rather than what he truly believes is best for the team, then Kraft has the responsibility to move on.

PATSYLICIOUS said:

I wonder if there’s any way we could lure him from la to be the heir when bb is done. Couple firsts would get it done?

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I doubt LA trades him any time soon.

PATSYLICIOUS said:

I wonder if there’s any way we could lure him from la to be the heir when bb is done. Couple firsts would get it done?

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Just two firsts.. as it is we horribly draft first and second rounders. So make it 2 firsts and two seconds...

mikey m said:

Question that I really don't know much about: do any other coaches around the league have the HC/GM powers and overall control that BB has?

Impossible to say if any coach has made more right/wrong decisions because noone here knows 10% of what goes on in the building everyday.

If Mac pans out and we are perennial playoff contenders after one more year then Bill beats the all time win record, goes down as the goat, and no one ever thinks about that one Cam covid season or the year developing a rookie qb. Yet, some here would continue to primarily discuss every instance in which he made a **** decision and held the team back from even greater success.

I will say this, if it's true that Bill is making decisions at this time based on what makes him happiest (adding players and coaches that he simply likes) rather than what he truly believes is best for the team, then Kraft has the responsibility to move on.

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I remember when there were rumors of him trading JG for lower than he could have got elsewhere because he wanted him to go to a good team, and I said at the time, if that was the case, he should be fired. Now I am not sure that is true, but yeah everything has to be in the best interest of this team, not another team or player.

mikey m said:

Question that I really don't know much about: do any other coaches around the league have the HC/GM powers and overall control that BB has?

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Yes kind of....

Long-tenured coaches like Pom-Pom, Fat Andy, Ratbird Harbaugh, Peyton and maybe a couple of others have it in their contracts that they must be consulted or have final say/sign-off on all personnel transactions. Now with these GMs, they basically hired them so in essence they have it without the language.

cmasspatsfan said:

I

Lets say the gave Brady two years at 50 million, where do the cuts come from the rest of the roster? So we could have had Tom but the team would have been thin. BB thought he could squeeze another year or two out of TB and went all in and it worked, He couldnt keep it going much longer.

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The fact of the matter is, there was only one player on the roster who was irreplaceable, and BB let him walk, essentially by refusing to offer him a two year deal and making him want out. I thought it was unbelievably stupid, ridiculous, unacceptable, whatever you want to call it, at the time, and nothing that has happened in the two years since has changed my mind. We had no plan at QB last year and ended up with a has-been who didn't fit the system. This year we have a rookie who might be good in the future, but he (again, like Brady in his last year) has no really good players around him to help him through the growing pains. Meanwhile Brady hasn't missed a beat and looks better than ever, with some decent talent around him. Maybe BB couldn't keep it going much longer (but why not? We've spent to the top of the cap and we look like crap on both sides of the ball, at varying times), but keeping Brady should have been his priority. Instead the GOAT coach seems to have bought into too much of his own hype, and his "my way or the highway" approach, without Brady, has cost the NE Patriots big time.

PatsDeb said:

The fact of the matter is, there was only one player on the roster who was irreplaceable, and BB let him walk, essentially by refusing to offer him a two year deal and making him want out. I thought it was unbelievably stupid, ridiculous, unacceptable, whatever you want to call it, at the time, and nothing that has happened in the two years since has changed my mind. We had no plan at QB last year and ended up with a has-been who didn't fit the system. This year we have a rookie who might be good in the future, but he (again, like Brady in his last year) has no really good players around him to help him through the growing pains. Meanwhile Brady hasn't missed a beat and looks better than ever, with some decent talent around him. Maybe BB couldn't keep it going much longer (but why not? We've spent to the top of the cap and we look like crap on both sides of the ball, at varying times), but keeping Brady should have been his priority. Instead the GOAT coach seems to have bought into too much of his own hype, and his "my way or the highway" approach, without Brady, has cost the NE Patriots big time.

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WRONG WRONG WRONG. Brady wouldn't be winning here, and now instead the Pats have the found their QB, putting them ahead of schedule in terms of being a contender in the near future, and a long time after that.

Bradybranch said:

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Brady wouldn't be winning here ...

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Or course he would be.

Pats1971 said:

yeah and it was still 7-9 after 10 years of building.....until brady came over. Then everything changed.

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Good God. That team had talent galore, except at QB, before Brady. The QB was holding them back bit time.

If you think that Brady would have won last year without talent around him, I don't know what to say.

Bradybranch said:

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Brady wouldn't be winning here, and now instead the Pats have the found their QB, putting them ahead of schedule in terms of being a contender in the near future, and a long time after that.

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Bradybranch said:

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Brady wouldn't be winning here, and now instead the Pats have the found their QB, putting them ahead of schedule in terms of being a contender in the near future, and a long time after that.

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You'll pardon me if I think you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Brady won here for 20 years. He left. Our team went down the tubes and his new team, which was nothing special before he joined them, suddenly is putting up numbers and wins, including the Super Bowl, JUST LIKE WE USED TO DO. What could be the factor in the direction taken by both teams? Gee, I just don't know.

sb1 said:

If anything damaged Bill's legacy it is Crygate. That was completely on him, although there should have been barely any penalty, if at all.

The odds he doesn't get into the HOF on the first ballot for that reason are not zero.

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FIFY

archstanton543 said:

Well that and he's treated the media like pond scum for 20 years and those are the guys voting.

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sb1 said:

Yup. One voter already said he's not voting for BB for that reason.
Borges is another voter and we all know how much of a fan he is..

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So Bill's the opposite of Pete Carroll. But the media are the pond scum.

We Patriots fans should know this better than anyone.

The derision, denigration, dismissal and in fact denial of the Patriots' on field success and the off-field positive contributions has been rampant and brazen for over fifty years, since the merger, and in fact led and encouraged by our own local media.

The false laughingstock narrative and 'broken and ridiculed' [by opponents and the league] verbal abuse is primarily what led to the three (so far) fake scandals, more so than jealousy of Kraft, hatred of Belichick or skepticism of Brady's ability (although they all, of course, helped).

Billy Sullivan is not the only financially inept clown in pro sports ownership.

PatsDeb said:

You'll pardon me if I think you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Brady won here for 20 years. He left. Our team went down the tubes and his new team, which was nothing special before he joined them, suddenly is putting up numbers and wins, including the Super Bowl, JUST LIKE WE USED TO DO. What could be the factor in the direction taken by both teams? Gee, I just don't know.

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Yeah,

I'm trying to keep Brady out of this as much as possible, but that poster was way off base. In Brady's entire NFL career, he's only had one season with fewer than 10 wins, and that was way back in 2002 (9-7). So the idea that Brady wouldn't be winning in New England today flies in the face of historical reality.

PatsDeb said:

You'll pardon me if I think you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Brady won here for 20 years. He left. Our team went down the tubes and his new team, which was nothing special before he joined them, suddenly is putting up numbers and wins, including the Super Bowl, JUST LIKE WE USED TO DO. What could be the factor in the direction taken by both teams? Gee, I just don't know.

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Nah, I won't pardon you. Go sell your tickets for an extraordinarily greedy price because you don't want to see Brady and the Bucs blow out the Pats. How'd that workout for you?

Our team went down the tubes? Last year maybe. But now the Pats are rebuilding and trending in the right direction. Will stack up some wins this year and next year MAC will be in his 2nd season, team will be better, and will be a playoff team. Brady will be done in a couple years while the pats are in the playoffs.