Sad to see BB's legacy ripped apart like this

Ian said:

If I recall with Landry, and one or two others, some of those wins at the end were embarrassing where it seemed like the team stopped buying in. If that starts happening here, I'd agree with you but I don't feel like we're even close to there just yet.

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Yeah that's what I mean. When it's time for a change we'll know based on what we see and hear from the players and the locker room.

Ian said:

I'm sure guys weren't happy about it. I'm not as down on Mills as others. Watching the film because I've been working on defensive snap counts (still haven't finished these just yet on that side of the ball) and have had to focus on guys a little more, he's been decent for the most part and has actually been one of their better tacklers. It hasn't been perfect as of late, but his overall body of work has been pretty good.

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Yeah. I don't think Mills is awful but not having Gilmore is so huge for the back end IMO. All of the offenses we are facing the next few weeks have guys that can hurt you all over the field.

Reports were Pete Carroll's happy personality here rubbed a few Pats players the wrong way since he was so different from Tuna.

When Belichick goes, I can see the same thing happening here for whoever comes in next.

sb1 said:

Yeah that's what I mean. When it's time for a change we'll know based on what we see and hear from the players and the locker room.

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I think the most recent example I can think of was Tom Coughlin. But Belichick has been smarter and he's adapted over time, so I think that's one of the reasons why he's continued to be successful.

sb1 said:

Reports were Pete Carroll's happy personality here rubbed a few Pats players the wrong way since he was so different from Tuna.

When Belichick goes, I can see the same thing happening here for whoever comes in next.

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Pete was an awful coach here. I believe he has admitted that. Also our personnel was a mess too.

Jovak said:

I'd like to know why people think Brady went to 9 Super Bowls and Rogers and Brees only went to 1 with their teams. Brady is not 9 times better than them.

I think it was because of Belichick's coaching, drafting, trades, free agent acquisitions, and salary cap management.

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Because Brady IS 9 times better than them.

amfootball said:

Pete was an awful coach here. I believe he has admitted that. Also our personnel was a mess too.

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Pete was fired because of the yearly regression from the Super Bowl year and I think Kraft had his eye on BB anyway. But I think some of that wasn't Pete's fault. Unlike BB he didn't have any say into the personnel and had to watch as Martin was stolen from us. Then he couldn't have foreseen a freak off field injury to Robert Edwards who might have been a more than capable heir.

sb1 said:

Pete was fired because of the yearly regression from the Super Bowl year and I think Kraft had his eye on BB anyway. But I think some of that wasn't Pete's fault. Unlike BB he didn't have any say into the personnel and had to watch as Martin was stolen from us. Then he couldn't have foreseen a freak off field injury to Robert Edwards who might have been a more than capable heir.

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The Pete years could be its own mini-series. LOL. So much wrong in those 3 years.

sb1 said:

Game manager QB's would have taken Madden's advice in that first Super Bowl - and not do what Brady did.

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Game managers are also not likely to finish in the top 10 in pass attempts, pass completions, passing yards, passing touchdowns, passer rating, game winning drives, comebacks, and total offense.


They also don't usually throw the ball 48 times in a Super Bowl game.



Brady did all of that in 2003.

The circumstances were a little weird too when Pete came in. Parcells quit he wasn't fired and the team was reigning AFC Champs. And I don't think Tuna lost the locker room. Definitely a bit of a Team Pete/Team Tuna thing there IIRC.

Cautionary tale on what can happen when the locker room isn't ready for a drastic coaching change if we're thinking it's time for BB to go now.

BradytoMosstoGronk said:

I really liked Luck, he had a ton of talent and was good enough to lead a team to a SB, Indy just failed putting enough behind him - actually, in front of him is more accurate.

Mac has played 6 games, looooots of time to blossom, definitely not doing him justice to make any concrete judgment this early.

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Luck is an example of how the career of even a great QB can be derailed by bad coaching and/or surrounding personnel.

sb1 said:

The circumstances were a little weird too when Pete came in. Parcells quit he wasn't fired and the team was reigning AFC Champs. And I don't think Tuna lost the locker room. Definitely a bit of a Team Pete/Team Tuna thing there IIRC.

Cautionary tale on what can happen when the locker room isn't ready for a coaching change if we're thinking it's time for BB to go now.

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I think it was Kraft who said being from NE, that tough nosed coaches are more his comfort zone than flip flops Pete. LOL

It is interesting to think about now because the game and culture has changed so much since Bill came in 2000. I heard someone say on the radio yesterday that Cora is able to connect well with generation Z and he wondered if Bill is not able to do that. I am not sure if that is true or fair to Bill just yet. It is hard to tell. I don't see any quit in this team but the vets are performing so poorly just because they are really too old. Bringing in retreads like Van Noy and now Collins seems like it was a fail. Hanging on to Hightower was also a mistake. I think D-Mac has been the best of the bunch but if you get rid of all of them in one swoop then you mess with the locker room too much IMO.

I do wonder what the locker room is like. I do think the Gilmore trade shook things up. I think letting Newton go and not at least keeping him as the back up shook things up. We will see how things go but I am not sure a coaching change to a younger guy like a Selah for example would be a bad thing at all. It may be what is needed down the road. JMO.

Ian said:

I wouldn't say that. This is what he said:

“We were in a tough call, I think, for the route they ran,” he said during a postgame press conference. “They dialed up a good play for what we tried to do — kind of situational football. What they like to do — we tried to take it away, and Dak was able to hold it for a second. We kind of took the first two reads: the tight ends to the flat on our left side. But (he) extended the play, and got back to the middle and that’s where we were kinda light at and that was it.”





Belichick echoed what he said:

“We covered a flat receiver and then he just on the over route with another extended play. Obviously didn’t play it well enough, didn’t coach it well enough,” he said after the game."

What went wrong for the Patriots on the Cowboys’ walk-off OT touchdown

The Patriots let up a 35-yard touchdown to CeeDee Lamb in a game where the defense had been excellent.

sports.yahoo.com

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amfootball said:

I believe it was Bedard yesterday who said that the Patriots D was in a cover 1/robber defense on the 3rd and 25 pass that went for 24 yards and set Dallas up for the tying FG. It was an unbelievable bad call given all we had to do was line up our DBs at the sticks and give them anything they wanted underneath but for some reason our LBs were actually covering their TEs and because of the robber, we were late getting to the deep in-cut.
Absolutely head scratching and have to wonder how that call went over with D-Mac.

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Was about to post something similar... It wasn't as much the game-winning defensive call as much as it was the call on 3rd/25...

amfootball said:

Bringing in retreads like Van Noy and now Collins seems like it was a fail. Hanging on to Hightower was also a mistake.

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I don't know about that, especially Hightower. Smart veteran players can make up for shortcomings with their knowledge and experience and provided Belichick plays to their strengths vs asking them to do things they can't anymore (which has already seemed to be happening with Hightower), I think they'll be OK.

As for bringing in a younger coach, I guess maybe when Bill is done we can go there. But my guess is for the sake of continuity, when that time does eventually come, it will likely be someone internally who gets the job.

Jercules said:

And Brady was a game manager for those first three Super Bowls.

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You shall be kept on the practice squad

Ian said:

I don't know about that, especially Hightower. Smart veteran players can make up for shortcomings with their knowledge and experience and provided Belichick plays to their strengths vs asking them to do things they can't anymore (which has already seemed to be happening with Hightower), I think they'll be OK.

As for bringing in a younger coach, I guess maybe when Bill is done we can go there. But my guess is for the sake of continuity, when that time does eventually come, it will likely be someone internally who gets the job.

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I get what you are saying but imagine if Hightower was replaced by someone even half as good as Devin White? It would be a complete game changer for our LBs.

I really hope we don't pick internally for the next HC. I don't want Josh or Patricia. I guess I would not mind Mayo if Bill thinks he is qualified.

venecol said:

Is it a coincidence that the 4 most conservative teams on going for it on 4th down have the 4 oldest coaches (Zimmer, Carroll, Arians, Belichick)?

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Damn…nice connection there. I never would have noticed that. This should be a study in itself.

Bills legacy is already written. Greatest coach of all time. Period. SIX SB championships and 9 trips to the SB as Patriot’s head coach.

Jercules said:

And Brady was a game manager for those first three Super Bowls.

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amfootball said:

I get what you are saying but imagine if Hightower was replaced by someone even half as good as Devin White? It would be a complete game changer for our LBs.

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I also understand what you're saying but obviously at this point of the year, "it is what it is". I'm guessing if things keep progressing the way they've been, they'll go there this offseason.

As for the coaching staff, if Josh doesn't bail - and Mac's addition may cause him to stick around - he's probably the guy. He may be more inclined to stay given that he's the guy putting in the work to develop him. Obviously, they'd pick right up where they left off offensively if that happened.

From there, leave Patricia in Caserio's role where he is now, and have Mayo be the guy on defense. The question I would have is whether or not Steve Belichick would stay on...not quite sure how/if that would work or not...I guess that depends on how Josh really feels about that, which obviously, we have no way of knowing. In theory, he could just essentially leave everything more or less the same if he's good with all of it.

It's all just speculation (and I'm probably wrong), but my feeling is they'd try and change as little as possible for the sake of making it a smooth transition.