OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

gobesmug said:

The Bucs failed the roster then by not trying to add Aaron Rogers in case Brady gets hurt.

Depth is a luxury, a contingency plan, you don't invest a lot of resources because a player might get hurt.

Right now the Bucs have the luxury of taking the BPA, because every starting pos is taken. Backups are a luxury.

Obviously you want capable backups that can start, but having a backup who can start on another team is a luxury.

That's not saying luxuries aren't great, it's just calling a spade a spade.

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Well in gronks case it would have been like going to get Bret Favre as your backup, Not rodgers. Again, the book on Gronk was he was done or that he would not make it through the season. Lets not act like Gronk had 20 teams all trying to pay him a fortune to come back. Frankly he would not have come back to any team unless Brady was playing, so there is your luxury.

gobesmug said:

The Bucs failed the roster then by not trying to add Aaron Rogers in case Brady gets hurt.

Depth is a luxury, a contingency plan, you don't invest a lot of resources because a player might get hurt.

Right now the Bucs have the luxury of taking the BPA, because every starting pos is taken. Backups are a luxury.

Obviously you want capable backups that can start, but having a backup who can start on another team is a luxury.

That's not saying luxuries aren't great, it's just calling a spade a spade.

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No, it's you with a lousy definition of "luxury".

Pats1971 said:

Well in gronks case it would have been like going to get Bret Favre as your backup, Not rodgers. Again, the book on Gronk was he was done or that he would not make it through the season. Lets not act like Gronk had 20 teams all trying to pay him a fortune to come back. Frankly he would not have come back to any team unless Brady was playing, so there is your luxury.

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The "luxury at TE" angle is just another ridiculous take being floated.


Patriots fans 2019: "It's good that Gronk retired. He was done anyway, and this way he can still live his life".
Patriots fans, post-Tampa Bay SB win: "I mean, the Bucs were so loaded that they even had Gronk! What an obvious luxury move to get a quality player like that!".
Reality: Gronk was in for 75% of the Bucs snaps in 2020, and was playing the most snaps of all the TEs even before Howard got injuried. In other words, far from being just a luxury, Gronk was the Bucs TE1, from the first game on.


Gronk:




Howard:




Brate

The Buccaneers tendered all of their exclusive rights free agents, including long snapper Zach Triner.


Triner, 30, signed his tender Thursday.

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Zach Triner signs his tender offer from Bucs - ProFootballTalk

Deus Irae said:

I've addressed this already.

• Howard hasn't been able to hold up physically, had been a disappointment, and was even rumored to be on the trading block
• Brate's not a TE1

At this point, I have to assume that you're just trolling for some reason.

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You don't prioritize roster building on expecting injuries to starters.

OJ played in 14 games his first year, 10 his second year and 14 his 3rd year.

Not perfect but far from being Ras-IR Dowling

Brate isn't an elite #1 TE no, but he is still a solid TE. He is worlds better than any TE on the Patriots roster the last couple years, so yes he is a starter quality TE. Not elite but solid.

When it was first reported that Gronk was coming out of retirement to only play with Brady in TB, a lot of people both from Tamba's side and NE's side thought OJ or Brate would be apart of the trade. Why? Because TE was loaded.

You don't pay 6.5mil to a third string TE that won't see many snaps unless the rest of the roster is solid. Which TB's roster was solid. Clearly it was otherwise they don't win the Superbowl.

Seriously are trying to say because they didn't have an established vet #3 TE when Brady signed that the roster was loaded with holes?

The Packers were great but they had no established TE, no Wr outside of Devonte Adams, and 1 good RB heading into the 2020 season. That's an offense that had a lot more holes than the Bucs had.

Deus Irae said:

No, it's you with a lousy definition of "luxury".

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You don't prioritize the third string TE unless you have a really good roster. Hence luxury.

It's a luxury to have a pool in FL. You don't buy it when you can barely pay your mortgage. It's great to have and gets used, but it's a luxury.

A luxury doesn't mean it's not useful. It means they were able to do it because they could.

They could add Gronk without cutting/trading OJ or Brate because they didn't need to address any glaring weaknesses on the roster because they didn't have any, aside from RT which they planned, and did, address in the draft.

It's not hard to see that.

Also, just because they didn't have glaring weaknesses, didn't mean every position was a HOF caliber player. It just means they were average or better at their position.

The Bucs were a good team with promise. They were hampered by mediocre QB play. I don't think they win the Superbowl without Brady. But they absolutely make the playoffs with a QB like Watson or Dak Prescott. Maybe the NFC championship with Rogers, but doubtful because he is a terrible leader.

Brady was the perfect QB for the Bucs, because of his QB skills and mostly his leadership skills.

gobesmug said:

You don't prioritize the third string TE unless you have a really good roster. Hence luxury.

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Ok, you're definitely trolling now. Have a nice night.

Deus Irae said:

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I don't know why the Patriots are not in the market for Teddy.

Deus Irae said:

Ok, you're definitely trolling now. Have a nice night.

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I'm not saying Gronk was the third string TE.

Also, the moment someone starts to lob accusations or insults that have nothing to do with the discussion, only proves who the real troll is.

Deus Irae said:

There absolutely were people here who loved the TB choice. But, even the biggest fans of a move to Tampa Bay had questions about the Bucs defensive secondary, tight ends, WR depth, and running backs. And most of them had questions about JPP (age), Barrett (one season wonder?) and Suh (Suh gonna Suh in big games).

What happened in Tampa is that most of the questions answered themselves in just about the most positive manner possible. And, for the questions that didn't answer themselves that way, "GM Brady" solved the TE problem ("I want Gronk"), the WR depth problem ("We need AB"), and the RB problem ("Hey, Lenny, come on down!").

And nobody predicted all of that prior to the season. That's why the whole "They were just a QB away" argument is nonsense.

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If I remember the general sentiment, it was that on offense, Tampa was well set at the skill positions but a big question mark with the offensive line. The thought was they were very much the opposite of the Patriots in being built "outside in" with star receivers/TEs but lacking the protection. Also that they were lacking the fundamental approach the Patriots take (short, precise passing) in favor of "throw it up there and make a play" stuff.

A lot of that thinking was just plain incorrect, especially coming from a Patriots fan perspective who tend to see things in black-and-white. Yes, it's true that their offensive line wasn't great, but we should all know that the quarterback has so much responsibility in this. I think most people realized Tampa's offense was pretty loaded, though, with Evans, Godwin, and Howard, along with plenty of resources to add more guys; once you have the star players, adding layers of contributors is a lot easier.

On defense, a lot of people in this very thread picked up on their very good DVOA in 2019 contrasted with the points allowed, noting what 33 interceptions will do to a defense. On paper, they had a good defensive team even before adding Winfield, and while their secondary doesn't have big name star players, they are pretty solid overall. But also, it's not like their defense was actually playing at the level of the 2000 Ravens all year; they got really hot at the end, were healthy, and were very fortunate to face (a) Brees, who had no arm left, (b) Rodgers, who lost a $23M left tackle weeks prior, and (c) Mahomes, who was down both tackles. All of these teams ran into the teeth of that defense, a swarming front 7 who also have the ability to cover tight ends and RBs in the passing game (a strength of the Saints and Chiefs, again).

So overall, I'm not that surprised that they put it all together, but I also think that team is probably 8-8 with many QBs and even with a "good" QB like Rivers are probably a one-and-done playoff team.

amfootball said:

I don't know why the Patriots are not in the market for Teddy.

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Because Bill is most likely going to trade up in the 1st for a QB.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

If I remember the general sentiment, it was that on offense, Tampa was well set at the skill positions but a big question mark with the offensive line. The thought was they were very much the opposite of the Patriots in being built "outside in" with star receivers/TEs but lacking the protection. Also that they were lacking the fundamental approach the Patriots take (short, precise passing) in favor of "throw it up there and make a play" stuff.

A lot of that thinking was just plain incorrect, especially coming from a Patriots fan perspective who tend to see things in black-and-white. Yes, it's true that their offensive line wasn't great, but we should all know that the quarterback has so much responsibility in this. I think most people realized Tampa's offense was pretty loaded, though, with Evans, Godwin, and Howard, along with plenty of resources to add more guys; once you have the star players, adding layers of contributors is a lot easier.

On defense, a lot of people in this very thread picked up on their very good DVOA in 2019 contrasted with the points allowed, noting what 33 interceptions will do to a defense. On paper, they had a good defensive team even before adding Winfield, and while their secondary doesn't have big name star players, they are pretty solid overall. But also, it's not like their defense was actually playing at the level of the 2000 Ravens all year; they got really hot at the end, were healthy, and were very fortunate to face (a) Brees, who had no arm left, (b) Rodgers, who lost a $23M left tackle weeks prior, and (c) Mahomes, who was down both tackles. All of these teams ran into the teeth of that defense, a swarming front 7 who also have the ability to cover tight ends and RBs in the passing game (a strength of the Saints and Chiefs, again).

So overall, I'm not that surprised that they put it all together, but I also think that team is probably 8-8 with many QBs and even with a "good" QB like Rivers are probably a one-and-done playoff team.

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Even on offense, there was a lot of doubt....

"Donovan Smith sucks, and he's going to get Brady killed" was a line of thought that was not limited to Bucs fan forums, and there was a whole lot of early concern about the TEs and RBs.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

If I remember the general sentiment, it was that on offense, Tampa was well set at the skill positions but a big question mark with the offensive line. The thought was they were very much the opposite of the Patriots in being built "outside in" with star receivers/TEs but lacking the protection. Also that they were lacking the fundamental approach the Patriots take (short, precise passing) in favor of "throw it up there and make a play" stuff.

A lot of that thinking was just plain incorrect, especially coming from a Patriots fan perspective who tend to see things in black-and-white. Yes, it's true that their offensive line wasn't great, but we should all know that the quarterback has so much responsibility in this. I think most people realized Tampa's offense was pretty loaded, though, with Evans, Godwin, and Howard, along with plenty of resources to add more guys; once you have the star players, adding layers of contributors is a lot easier.

On defense, a lot of people in this very thread picked up on their very good DVOA in 2019 contrasted with the points allowed, noting what 33 interceptions will do to a defense. On paper, they had a good defensive team even before adding Winfield, and while their secondary doesn't have big name star players, they are pretty solid overall. But also, it's not like their defense was actually playing at the level of the 2000 Ravens all year; they got really hot at the end, were healthy, and were very fortunate to face (a) Brees, who had no arm left, (b) Rodgers, who lost a $23M left tackle weeks prior, and (c) Mahomes, who was down both tackles. All of these teams ran into the teeth of that defense, a swarming front 7 who also have the ability to cover tight ends and RBs in the passing game (a strength of the Saints and Chiefs, again).

So overall, I'm not that surprised that they put it all together, but I also think that team is probably 8-8 with many QBs and even with a "good" QB like Rivers are probably a one-and-done playoff team.

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Yeah I heard that Brady would get killed as well. I mean look at how many times Winston got sacked!!! Taking sacks is as much about the QB at times as it is the line. Their defense was no great shakes this year, it was good at times and at other times he was terrible. They really had the same players as they did for a long time, but having a consistent offense does help teams on defense. I showed on here somewhere the last 5 years where tampa was toward the bottom in the league on defense up until 2020 all of the sudden they jump into the top 10. Same players, same coaches. I said before, sometimes all you need is that one guy that makes you think you can win.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

If I remember the general sentiment, it was that on offense, Tampa was well set at the skill positions but a big question mark with the offensive line. The thought was they were very much the opposite of the Patriots in being built "outside in" with star receivers/TEs but lacking the protection. Also that they were lacking the fundamental approach the Patriots take (short, precise passing) in favor of "throw it up there and make a play" stuff.

A lot of that thinking was just plain incorrect, especially coming from a Patriots fan perspective who tend to see things in black-and-white. Yes, it's true that their offensive line wasn't great, but we should all know that the quarterback has so much responsibility in this. I think most people realized Tampa's offense was pretty loaded, though, with Evans, Godwin, and Howard, along with plenty of resources to add more guys; once you have the star players, adding layers of contributors is a lot easier.

On defense, a lot of people in this very thread picked up on their very good DVOA in 2019 contrasted with the points allowed, noting what 33 interceptions will do to a defense. On paper, they had a good defensive team even before adding Winfield, and while their secondary doesn't have big name star players, they are pretty solid overall. But also, it's not like their defense was actually playing at the level of the 2000 Ravens all year; they got really hot at the end, were healthy, and were very fortunate to face (a) Brees, who had no arm left, (b) Rodgers, who lost a $23M left tackle weeks prior, and (c) Mahomes, who was down both tackles. All of these teams ran into the teeth of that defense, a swarming front 7 who also have the ability to cover tight ends and RBs in the passing game (a strength of the Saints and Chiefs, again).

So overall, I'm not that surprised that they put it all together, but I also think that team is probably 8-8 with many QBs and even with a "good" QB like Rivers are probably a one-and-done playoff team.

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Yep, the biggest question about the offense was QB and the Oline.

I definitely agree that QB play can elevate an Oline or hinder it.

Donovan Smith was viewed as an overpaid and lazy LT. Cappa RG below ave and they had no RT as their starting RT from the previous season was old and left in FA.

Ali Marpet LG and Jensen were the strength. Especially Marpet, he is borderline All Pro. It's no coincidence that when he got sidelined for a few weeks in mid season that the Bucs couldn't protect Brady on the left side.

Marpet covers for Smith weaknesses, and Wirfs did such a good job that when Cappa got hurt and Stennie replaced him there was no noticable difference between the Oline play, unlike when Marpet went down.

Wirfs was such a great pick, had he been taken before they were able to trade up, they might have taken Isaiah Wilson, it's likely they don't make it past the Saints in the playoffs in that scenario.

amfootball said:

I don't know why the Patriots are not in the market for Teddy.

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Any quarterback being dumped for Sam Darnold is not a quarterback I want.

Nehalem said:

Any quarterback being dumped for Sam Darnold is not a quarterback I want.

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This is not an indictment on Teddys ability to be a nice bridge QB but the Panthers taking a gamble that Darnold might be a franchise QB on their team.

gobesmug said:

I fully agree it is nonsense to say they were a LeBron esque or GSW type team.

They had a strong roster and looked like a team that would greatly benefit from having Brady.

The Saints were the better matchup, and if Taysom Hill hadn't been injured, it might have been the Saints losing to the Packers in the NFC.

The Bucs rush was crippling to QBs like Mahomes and Rogers, because they like to hang onto to the ball looking for the homerun and making the first defender miss to make time.

Problem for Rogers and Mahomes is that the Bucs have very athletic rushers that stop that nonsense.

The only weakness was the Bucs average secondary, which Brees was able to feast against with a somewhat healthy offense. Precision quick passing is the Bucs defensive Achilles heel .

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What the hell are you even talking about? Would coulda should’ve. Tatami Hill was the difference between Tampa and NO hahaha

VectorPrime said:

This is not an indictment on Teddys ability to be a nice bridge QB but the Panthers taking a gamble that Darnold might be a franchise QB on their team.

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Teddy is ass