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Sam Darnold to Panthers


You have a very valid point about a QB outside the Top 5.

I'm waffling on reaching/rolling the dice for a Mills/Mond/Newman tier 2 - who should in theory have a much better chance of success than Book/Ehlinger - should that be the way the draft unfolds and/or trading up is not possible.

The Pats went 7-9 last year and have improved the roster in free agency. But another year of Cam will result in what, maybe 8-8, 9-7? Then what? The end result will be that in the 2022 draft the Patriots will be even further away from obtaining their long term solution at QB than they are now, due to being even further away from the number one draft pick - that's my concern. Who wants a period of several years of 7-9 to 9-7, before finally bottoming out and being able to draft a franchise QB?

Edit - Shoot...sorry I got carried away in my explanation! I really need to be better at condensing my messages. I added a too long, didn’t read version at the bottom if you want to skip the essay.

There’s a lot to consider for sure.

When a team is drafting a QB, usually within the first two rounds, they’re making a high investment on someone they see capable of stepping in to the starting role fairly soon. That affordable rookie contract is only good for four years, so if you want to build around this guy, you’ll want to figure that out at least halfway through the contract.

To me, the top 5 are the only QBs that if pressed to start for the Pats this season, I wouldn’t mind it (Lance being the least likely to be put in that spot...BB would absolutely carry 3 QBs in that scenario). After that, you have to hope that the likes of Mond, Mills, Newman, Trask, whoever you pick out of that group, that they can handle the responsibilities of an NFL QB right away, if you’re talking about replacing Cam *this season*. I think teams like the Steelers, Falcons, Bucs, they have franchise QBs who are toward the end of their careers, they can afford to have a Mond or Mills redshirt for a year, develop without the pressure of performing right away, and then see where they’re at a year or two from now. There won’t be pressure for them to go in and start.

Anyone who ends up on the Patriots is going to be observed very closely since Cam has a very tenuous grip of his position as starter. I think the odds are high that Pats fans are going to be very sick of seeing Cam throw ducks out there, and desperate to see the backup come in. If our season is riding on a raw prospect like Mond, we’re already doomed. If it’s riding on a guy like Fields, there’s at least hope because of his enormous talent.

If you draft a guy in the first couple rounds, there is usually a need to invest the years in seeing what you have. Even a guy like Ryan Mallett, who the Pats took in the 3rd round in 2011. They kept him rostered for three years before they finally cut bait and traded him away. Garoppolo was a 2nd round pick, and only didn’t stay because Brady outlasted him. It is rare to see something like with Dwayne Haskins where a team gives up on the player by the second season. More likely you see a guy like Mitchell Trubisky put up four mediocre seasons as the team tries to get return on investment. Buffalo held on to EJ Manuel for four seasons, even when it was clear early on that he was not an NFL caliber QB.

You invest big on one young QB, that means you’re looking away when other opportunities present themselves. It took the Jets three seasons to divorce themselves from Darnold, who has yet to perform as a 3rd overall pick should. And only because they’re in prime position to draft his successor. Had they not had a first round pick this year, there’s a good chance they’d give him a fourth and final year to see if maybe the new head coach can turn things around. But instead Saleh now has the chance to bring in his own QB (likely Zach Wilson), and then Saleh and that QB’s fates will be tied together.

If the Pats get a second tier QB like Mond/Mills/Newman/Trask, that means they’re more than likely investing in that QB being their long term guy. Sure they can always sign Garoppolo if the Niners cut him, and if Garoppolo realizes his full potential and becomes a dependable franchise guy, then that developmental QB they took in the 2nd or 3rd round becomes a possible trade chip, the same way Garoppolo was toward the end of his rookie deal. But otherwise, if it’s Cam, unless he turns back the clock to his MVP form and plays himself to a contract extension, he’s gone next year and that QB1 spot is open and you have to hope you have your guy on the roster by then. Next year’s draft class isn’t as strong as this year’s, and next year’s FA QB class looks every bit as weak as this year’s did. Don’t want to have to look for another bridge if your next guy up isn’t ready for the big time. That’s how guys like Ryan Fitzpatrick keep finding starting jobs despite a 16 year resume with 0 playoff appearances to his name.

Long story short, there is as much time investment needed as there is in planning around the cap. When you draft a QB in the 1st or 2nd round it’s because you believe he can be the starter eventually. So if they took Mond at 46th overall, you’re looking at anywhere from 2-4 years of the team developing, evaluating, and determining if he’s worth the investment or not. And those years can be lost if the guy is a bust. The same can happen with any of the top 5 (and odds are it will with at least one of them), but it seems less likely than with that second tier. You can be patient with Lance, Fields, Mac Jones, but if you’re lucky then you won’t have to be that patient.

TL;DR - raw QBs drafted high require investment both in draft capital and time. Run the risk of wasting time with a career backup when you could’ve aimed higher. No guarantees of course.
 
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The end result will be that in the 2022 draft the Patriots will be even further away from obtaining their long term solution at QB than they are now, due to being even further away from the number one draft pick - that's my concern. Who wants a period of several years of 7-9 to 9-7, before finally bottoming out and being able to draft a franchise QB?

You are acting as if there are some big odds to land a franchise QB just by drafting early. The reality is that you are much more likely to draft a QB who won't be on your team in four years (no matter if its a top3, top5, top10 pick) than a Mahomes. Just check the cemetery that is the early QB selections in the last 5-6 years.
 
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One of the top 5 should fall to NE, but sitting at 15 risks being leapfrogged by the WFT or Bears, so I could see a move up to 11 or 12.

If JG frees up for less than a 1st, that's attractive cause we're competitive right away and we can use the 1st on another position.
 
Does it give anybody cause for concern that carolina chose Darnold over Qbs 4/5 in this draft (presumably fields and Lance if the Mac to SF rumors are true)?

Yeah, we still don't know how the Pats view this "top 5" list of QB's. They may see it as having one or two really good prospects, and the rest long shots. And that would be a normal QB draft in the NFL.
 
Does it give anybody cause for concern that carolina chose Darnold over Qbs 4/5 in this draft (presumably fields and Lance if the Mac to SF rumors are true)?
Only slightly. The Falcons are in position to take Pitts or a QB if they so chose, and can demand a king’s ransom from any team that inquires. Doubly so if that team is from the same division like Carolina is.

Could be that the opportunity to buy low on a young QB with untapped potential like Darnold, who is still at a relatively cheap salary, was too good to pass up. And there’s nothing saying that they can’t still draft a guy like Trey Lance if he falls to them at 8th overall. Lance wouldn’t be expected to start this year anyway, and could be given the reigns by next year or the year after. Everything is still in play for the Panthers.
 
Mike Tannenbaum thinks QB still in play for Carolina... i think if the Pats want Fields they are going to have to trade up with Detroit

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8. Carolina Panthers

Justin Fields, QB, Ohio State

The Panthers dealt three picks to the Jets for Sam Darnold on Monday, but I still think QB is the play in Round 1. Seriously. Darnold is owed roughly $24 million over the next two years, and Fields would be on a rookie contract. The worst case here: Carolina has two good, young, cost-effective QBs and can make a decision to move one of them down the road. (And the Panthers could still get something for Teddy Bridgewater.) For what it's worth, Panthers GM Scott Fitterer agrees.

If you remove the tape from a few of his games this season (Indiana, Northwestern and Alabama), Fields would be in the No. 2 overall pick discussion. His accuracy is excellent most of the time, though there are some lapses. If not QB, cornerback is an option for Carolina, and Patrick Surtain II(Alabama) would fit.

One thing to know: Fields is the only player in Big Ten history with at least 40 passing touchdowns and 10 rushing touchdowns in the same season (2019).
 
Mike Tannenbaum thinks QB still in play for Carolina...

i

8. Carolina Panthers

Justin Fields, QB, Ohio State

The Panthers dealt three picks to the Jets for Sam Darnold on Monday, but I still think QB is the play in Round 1. Seriously. Darnold is owed roughly $24 million over the next two years, and Fields would be on a rookie contract. The worst case here: Carolina has two good, young, cost-effective QBs and can make a decision to move one of them down the road. (And the Panthers could still get something for Teddy Bridgewater.) For what it's worth, Panthers GM Scott Fitterer agrees.

If you remove the tape from a few of his games this season (Indiana, Northwestern and Alabama), Fields would be in the No. 2 overall pick discussion. His accuracy is excellent most of the time, though there are some lapses. If not QB, cornerback is an option for Carolina, and Patrick Surtain II(Alabama) would fit.

One thing to know: Fields is the only player in Big Ten history with at least 40 passing touchdowns and 10 rushing touchdowns in the same season (2019).
I agree with him.

What has Darnold done to show he is a franchise QB?
 
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One of the top 5 should fall to NE, but sitting at 15 risks being leapfrogged by the WFT or Bears, so I could see a move up to 11 or 12.

If JG frees up for less than a 1st, that's attractive cause we're competitive right away and we can use the 1st on another position.
I think fans are a bit over their skis assuming ATL will not contemplate drafting a QB.
 




agreed carolina still in play.....in fact, this might make it easier for them to make a move
 
Darnold may be ruined at this point, but Rhule and Brady’s offense might be the easiest way for his career to get back on track. The Jets have this knack for drafting QBs and then ignoring the OL, weapons, or both. Brady’s offense is very QB-friendly.
 
I don't believe Carolina made the deal for Darnold if they had major questions about him. Darnold's only 23, he's healthy and won't take long to get back on track, he's their QB going forward. The talk is just a smokescreen cause they want a QB-hungry team like NE to pay a ransom moving up to 8. They're out of the QB hunt and will be picking a position player.

As far as Atlanta, I suppose they could blow it all up cap-wise, but they'll be very hamstrung for 2 years if they do. Ryan could play another 4-5 years at this level. I think they'll pick non-QB, and should try to trade down a little.
 
,My first reaction when I read just how LITTLE the Jets got for the #3 pick in the entire draft just 3 years ago was how ridiculous the Niner's demands for JG's bloated contract and health issues really was,
It seems fans and media over value how much draft capital teams are willing to give up for veteran players.

I mean even the 2nd and 4th in 2022 have only 3rd and 5th values for this year, Pretty good deal for the Panthers if you ask me.
Pretty much every Jete fan is incapable of understanding the value of time. It matters not just what round pick you acquire, but also what year the pick is in, and what the prospects for the team providing the pick are. It seems they read a 2nd round CAR pick next year as being the same as an early 2nd round pick this year. Ironically if Darnit has a good season he makes the draft pick's value worse for da Jete.

Darnell was held in as high esteem back in 2018 as Wilson and Jones are now, maybe even higher. Plus he was considered much more "NFL ready" than Fields and Lance are now.

Prior to this move I had pretty much given up any chances the Pats would be looking at having a chance at any of the first 5 QB's being there at 15 and I was OK with that. MIlls, Monde and Trask all seem like good prospects at 46 or moving up to the early parts of the 3rd round In fact when I was thinking about moving up in the first it was to get Parsons, NOT a QB
I'm in favor of drafting a developmental QB this year and every year till we get a young talent that can carry us forward. I don't think BB sees it that way. I think he'll say it's not worth the cost of moving up and the best move is to go with BPA or trade down and take a shot at a developmental QB in the later rounds. Unfortunately for whomever that is, the player will be viewed as heir apparent the same way Stidham has been viewed. Some times a cigar is just a cigar.

So I'm not sure where this all leaves the Pats as far as the QB position goes, But it DOES do the following

It shows just how weak the JG market really is,

AND a good case could be made for the chances of of one of the top 5 QB's being there at 15. Maybe not a 50-50 chance, but a lot higher than one would have thought yesterday,

BTW- just remember the next time we try and rate draft moves before the first 3 years go by. There was a time when Sam Darnell was considered a can't miss prospect AND Josh Allen was considered a huge mistake. :eek:
It's hard for me to see BB paying any more for JG than what he got when he left, which was a 2nd in the next year's draft, akin to what Darnold just was traded for. Even that seems to be an over-pay given JG's injury history and contract. Seems far more likely that BB will just play things out with Cam and Stid and a developmental QB then see what the price for JG is in the off season.
 
Mike Tannenbaum thinks QB still in play for Carolina... i think if the Pats want Fields they are going to have to trade up with Detroit

i

8. Carolina Panthers

Justin Fields, QB, Ohio State

The Panthers dealt three picks to the Jets for Sam Darnold on Monday, but I still think QB is the play in Round 1. Seriously. Darnold is owed roughly $24 million over the next two years, and Fields would be on a rookie contract. The worst case here: Carolina has two good, young, cost-effective QBs and can make a decision to move one of them down the road. (And the Panthers could still get something for Teddy Bridgewater.) For what it's worth, Panthers GM Scott Fitterer agrees.

If you remove the tape from a few of his games this season (Indiana, Northwestern and Alabama), Fields would be in the No. 2 overall pick discussion. His accuracy is excellent most of the time, though there are some lapses. If not QB, cornerback is an option for Carolina, and Patrick Surtain II(Alabama) would fit.

One thing to know: Fields is the only player in Big Ten history with at least 40 passing touchdowns and 10 rushing touchdowns in the same season (2019).

yeah, Bill os going to have to trade up for Fields if he wants him.

Don't just say No, but instead say **** NO to the future BUST Justin Fields!
 
Darnold sucks, Panthers will regret this.

Stupid Jets doing the right things again. Stop it.

Yep...Darnold sucks. With very few exceptions, history shows that quarterbacks who suck, just suck. You can change their system and their team and give them better protection and receivers, but that's going to give them, at best, a temporary bump and nothing more. The Jets waited way too long, imo, because with very few exceptions, history also shows that quarterbacks actually don't get much better after year 1, and the jumps to year 2 and year 3 and tremendously exagerrated...that is, it happens very rarely. For most QBs, you just are what you are. Darnold's poor play in 2018 and 2019 was way below the line of salvagibility.

The Panthers are also making a bad move here by trading a second-round pick for a guy who is at very best a backup/fringe starter. I'd much rather spend a second round pick on a quarterback and hope I hit the lottery than a spending it on a guy who I know isn't the guy.
 
I’m sorry Zach ....your career is over and then you will be traded for a 4th 6th and 7th but it will be too late you will be physically, mentally and emotionally scarred
This, and be careful about kissing teenaged girls...

I agree with him.

What has Darnold done to show he is a franchise QB?
IMO it has been a remarkable twist.

Apparently CAR is not as into Teddy as we thought, and are willing to go into the season with Darnit at QB.

I wonder if this is all based on their in house variant of analytics?

Certainly Darnold's on-field play doesn't support this.

Yet they seem to be betting it all on a Tannehill-like reversal of fortunes?

Enough that Caroliina just guaranteed him $18m for next year, apparently.
Guaranteed for injury. He still can get cut relatively easily if he sucks and makes it through the season uninjured.
 


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