Kraft acknowledges drafting woes, says approach is changing

patsinthesnow said:

The 2020 draft being underwhelming is fake news

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Uche's overall production is low. And in college he didn't even start. I hope he pans out but let's not pretend he's actually done much yet.

Dugger , I like his aggressiveness. Whether he can replace Chung depends on whether he can cover tight ends, no easy feat

DropKickFlutie said:

Uche's overall production is low. And in college he didn't even start. I hope he pans out but let's not pretend he's actually done much yet.

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Bust! Worst draft class evah!

It feels good to visit the dark side every now and again...

Bill Lee said:

Bust! Worst draft class evah!

It feels good to visit the dark side every now and again...

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Uche looks fast but it's a bit misleading to be claiming much for a guy who all season had 1 sack and 7 total tackles. Drew Rosenhaus has made a fortune from Bill getting a half dozen clients there the last 12 months.

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Bill Lee said:

The problem is focusing on "mistakes" as if they are something abnormal, when they are not.

We have made lots of "mistakes" along the way yet have had the greatest dynasty in sports history.

For instance we made the "mistake" of drafting a QB with the first overall pick in the draft and replacing him a few years later with a sixth rounder.

What a terrible use of draft capital, fire everyone!

In reality we're not the Bungals or the Browns, but people here moan as if we are.

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Sure but as Pats fans, some of us are entitled to ask "what have you done for me lately."

The 2020 season is proof positive that the lack of success in the last 5 drafts came back to haunt the team. It's been universally acknowledged that the 2020 team was devoid of talent. You can't hide that. Kraft saw it. Everyone saw it.

How is it being fixed? By going out and breaking all NFL records in the amount of guarantees being handed out! That's all Kraft is saying.

How is it being miserable to acknowledge your mistakes. You need to learn from mistakes. Sure the team won 2 SBs in the last 5 years, despite these mistakes. Why? Well having the GOAT was a large part of it. Reading the posts in the last month shows many of the posters don't believe you can win with just an average QB, despite good coaching.

Being optimistic is fine but trying to shut down anyone that points out "real" mistakes is not what a forum should be about.

Is the Patriots offensive college scouts just plain crap?

DropKickFlutie said:

Uche looks fast but it's a bit misleading to be claiming much for a guy who all season had 1 sack and 7 total tackles.

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What claim are you taking about, other than the PFF grades? It's not like someone is running a campaign for him to be all-pro.

DropKickFlutie said:

Drew Rosenhaus has made a fortune from Bill getting a half dozen clients there the last 12 months.

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So, lets just refuse to work with Rosenhaus clients because, why?

Bill Lee said:

What claim are you taking about, other than the PFF grades? It's not like someone is running a campaign for him to be all-pro.


So, lets just refuse to work with Rosenhaus clients because, why?

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You seem to have an issue with comprehension and making odd conclusions. I didn't say refuse to work with Rosenhaus. He clearly has Bill's ear and I would guess not all of his guys are excellent players. He's making a ton of money funneling his clients to NE without much resistance it seems.

RobertWeathers said:

I thought Nike had a good draft last year.

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Better than Monte and Nick C......now both gone.
Maybe that is the different approach. Cousin Weathers, I am sure you or I could have had better Draft results over the last five years.
Hence the statement from Mr. Kraft about change. No remorse for losing those two.
Yes BB is culpable as the final say, but he did so on their advise.
Ironically, Easterby blames the Krafts for his Teams turmoil. What? Then he turns around and hires Nick C? He sounds like the politicians we have today. Blame the other guy even if it is your fault. Keep blaming and finally the stupid public will believe it. Is that your MO Jack?
If you want a conspiracy theory, how did Nick C. perform last year, our worst in 21 years, after he was refused release to leave for the Texans? Makes you go ......hmmmmm?
DW Toys

DropKickFlutie said:

Uche looks fast but it's a bit misleading to be claiming much for a guy who all season had 1 sack and 7 total tackles. Drew Rosenhaus has made a fortune from Bill getting a half dozen clients there the last 12 months.

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Honestly, I think Uche could have had a better rookie season if he had had the luxury of the role Winovich had in HIS rookie season. Because we had Hightower, Collins, Van Noy, and Roberts getting the majority of the standard reps, Winovich could focus on being a high motor, 3rd down pass rusher, and for most of the season he thrived there.

Uche had to have more on his plate because those four guys were gone. I think with some additional talent in the group he'll find a good role for himself (Winovich too), and can grow at a more appropriate pace to whatever he's going to be.

zipster9 said:

Is the Patriots offensive college scouts just plain crap?

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Imagine thinking the group that had a hand in signing Jonathan Jones, JC Jackson, David Andrews in undrafted free agency is crap.

JMC00 said:

Imagine thinking the group that had a hand in signing Jonathan Jones, JC Jackson, David Andrews in undrafted free agency is crap.

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He said "offensive", not undrafted.

Deus Irae said:

No, I just use my brain.

The drafts sucked from 2006-2008, and people tried pinning that on Pioli, despite BB's having final say. Then, the 2009 draft was

View attachment 31836

which is mostly a pile of garbage. Without Vollmer and Edelman, it's a complete bust of a draft. 2010 was

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Which is 2 excellent picks (DMac, Gronk), one guy who was a very limited thumper (Spikes) who was a successful pick in his role, and a multi-time killer who put up great numbers in his time.

So, basically, 24 draft picks to come up with 5 players (Remember that Chung washed out at first) and a murderer. And that's part of the Not-Pioli, but BB-Floyd Reese era.

Things got better after that, for a 3 year stretch, then went back to being mostly ****. So the bad drafts don't track Pioli. The successful drafts don't track Floyd Reese, either.

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Sure they do. You just admitted it yourself. “Things got better for three years after that.” That was Reese’s tenure. The 2010 draft brought in an NFL Hall of Famer, a Pats HoFer, and someone who ended up being psychotic, but would have had a fine NFL career as a Move-TE were he not. That draft started the ball rolling on the current dynasty. Key players to said dynasty were drafted over the next 3 years until Reese left, Caserio got promoted, and the fountain of youth on the dynasty dried out.

Deus Irae said:

And are you seriously going to try blaming Caserio for Easley, Jones and Harry, just to name 3 obvious examples of what were surely BB overrides?

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I think it’s absurd to believe that the Director of Player Personnel didn’t give his input on all 3. He either liked them or didn’t bother to push back on BB enough. You can think it’s a coincidence that the drafts fell apart right around the time he became the main voice in the room if you wish. But the anecdotal evidence doesn’t support you.

betterthanthealternative said:

Its part of something bigger, IMHO.

The vast majority of draft picks made by every NFL team could be hindsight-evaluated as "blown picks" because a player drafted later turned out to have a better career. Probably 95% of them.

To find a way to be victimized because your team didn't make perfect picks every year shows a preference for misery. What's the point of being a sports fan if it is used to bring misery into life? It is intended to do the opposite.

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An old friend of mine once explained to me that entertainers make about a third of their income because they give people something to be miserable about. It's true in every entertainment industry, from publishing to television to sports to movies. This board's make-up falls right in line with that.

venecol said:

Sure but as Pats fans, some of us are entitled to ask "what have you done for me lately."

The 2020 season is proof positive that the lack of success in the last 5 drafts came back to haunt the team. It's been universally acknowledged that the 2020 team was devoid of talent. You can't hide that. Kraft saw it. Everyone saw it.

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How good a draft do you expect to have after getting to the super bowl three out of four years, eight straight AFC championship games, etc?

You end up with poor draft position and making short term desperation moves like Sanu and AB to try to get to the big dance one more time that end up burning you long term.

venecol said:

How is it being fixed? By going out and breaking all NFL records in the amount of guarantees being handed out! That's all Kraft is saying.

How is it being miserable to acknowledge your mistakes. You need to learn from mistakes. Sure the team won 2 SBs in the last 5 years, despite these mistakes. Why? Well having the GOAT was a large part of it. Reading the posts in the last month shows many of the posters don't believe you can win with just an average QB, despite good coaching.

Being optimistic is fine but trying to shut down anyone that points out "real" mistakes is not what a forum should be about.

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We end up with what you call poor drafts (which other teams would call average drafts) then you complain we make a big push in FA, so what, try more bad drafting instead?

"Real mistakes" are part of the drafting process, it's far from an exact science.

Everyone makes "real mistakes", including the greatest dynasty in sports history.

Why is it being optimistic to not dwell on inevitable mistakes?

Do you sit around and stew on choices you've made in the past that you'd do differently if you happened to own a time machine?

Isn't it being pessimistic to harp on mistakes everyone makes, including the greatest dynasty in sports history?

DW Toys said:

Better than Monte and Nick C......now both gone.
Maybe that is the different approach. Cousin Weathers, I am sure you or I could have had better Draft results over the last five years.
Hence the statement from Mr. Kraft about change. No remorse for losing those two.
Yes BB is culpable as the final say, but he did so on their advise.
Ironically, Easterby blames the Krafts for his Teams turmoil. What? Then he turns around and hires Nick C? He sounds like the politicians we have today. Blame the other guy even if it is your fault. Keep blaming and finally the stupid public will believe it. Is that your MO Jack?
If you want a conspiracy theory, how did Nick C. perform last year, our worst in 21 years, after he was refused release to leave for the Texans? Makes you go ......hmmmmm?
DW Toys

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Easterbunny reminds me of the old TV evangelist Jim Bakker. Here here is preaching how his followers need to abide by his word but here he is embezzling money, cheats on his wife and blamed a hurricane on Obama.

Idiot.

venecol said:

Sure but as Pats fans, some of us are entitled to ask "what have you done for me lately."

The 2020 season is proof positive that the lack of success in the last 5 drafts came back to haunt the team. It's been universally acknowledged that the 2020 team was devoid of talent. You can't hide that. Kraft saw it. Everyone saw it.

How is it being fixed? By going out and breaking all NFL records in the amount of guarantees being handed out! That's all Kraft is saying.

How is it being miserable to acknowledge your mistakes. You need to learn from mistakes. Sure the team won 2 SBs in the last 5 years, despite these mistakes. Why? Well having the GOAT was a large part of it. Reading the posts in the last month shows many of the posters don't believe you can win with just an average QB, despite good coaching.

Being optimistic is fine but trying to shut down anyone that points out "real" mistakes is not what a forum should be about.

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You're missing one pretty important point. Look at any NFL roster in three parts: rookie deals, middle class, older vets. The Pats sustained success in the last few years by continuing to pay that middle class - they went into every draft (except 2019) with few "needs" and more looking for players who could crack a veteran roster.

Go an look at the rosters if you don't believe me.

They had the best middle class in the league, year after year, and have the hardware to prove it.

Over the last couple of years, that middle class aged out or opted out for next deals the Patriots couldn't match (without pushing a ton of cash forward - look at Van Noy making $15m in Miami, for example, or Collins doing 3/30 at Detroit). They had to clear their books, and they did.

Look at this year's contributing members - look at how many were first, second, or third-year guys. Guys like Uche and Jennings, Dugger, Onwenu, were getting way more playing time than would be usual for a kid on the Patriots. Even with that, even with a mess at QB, they won 7 games.

So the money they laid out in FA, money they HAD, this year and next, was essentially the money they would have paid to extend their young middle class - guys fresh off rookie deals. They got Judon for 4/14, after Baltimore had franchised him at 16 last year. You want to see their 2016 and 2017 draft classes? They just extended them in FA.

The 2021 team will look at lot different in terms of who's on what contract. Instead of Uche, Dugger, and Jennings, you'll have those guys plus Hightower, Van Noy, and Judon.

This isn't the perfect way to do it, of course, as you don't really know how some - say Henry and Smith - will wind up working together when they get on the field. It would be preferable to be able to just fill in against a starting core going into their second contracts. But you can only do that for so long, because you run out of roster slots for development, and if you're good, as were the Pats, you're pick 29-32 instead of top 10, top 15, every round, every year (look at Tampa's homegrown roster and where those guys were picked).




Look at last year's roster.

DropKickFlutie said:

You seem to have an issue with comprehension and making odd conclusions. I didn't say refuse to work with Rosenhaus. He clearly has Bill's ear and I would guess not all of his guys are excellent players. He's making a ton of money funneling his clients to NE without much resistance it seems.

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What are you offering other than saying correlation equals causation?

Seriously, it feels like you are searching for sketchy narratives to make yourself miserable over.

I will say that over the course of 19 years or so BB has been very good at getting talent when needed. Otherwise there is no way the Patriots could have been so dominant so long. But I do think he ran into a string of bad luck over the past few years and things were getting pretty thin in NE. Which is why Brady was frustrated. He was used to making average rosters work and adjusting to limitations but what was going on over the last few years was becoming too much.

It does not mean that BB has a problem acquiring talent however. He has done a fairly bang up job historically and any head coach would love to have his level of success over the last 19 years. It's also not a given that BB won't figure out how to fix the roster. Likely he will get things on course fairly quickly if not already so with the FA acquisitions. The problem is now they have no QB. Cam Newton is not the answer. He might get you a winning season but likely not into the playoffs and if he does get that far not past the 1st round or so.

It almost feels like BB was aiming for "respectable" this year and not the SB like usual with Brady in tow.

KontradictioN said:

Sure they do. You just admitted it yourself. “Things got better for three years after that.” That was Reese’s tenure.

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Yeah, but that's you taking a line and building it up far beyond its intention.

1. Reese was from 2009 - 2012, which is 4 years, not 3.
2. Getting better isn't tough when you've been down for a while. You just have to suck a little bit less, and the improvement from 09-12 is well within the range of normal luck.
3. Third, The real kicker in evaluating Reese's tenure is the 2010 draft, which featured 2 distressed properties (Gronk, AHern). Without them, and Edelman in 2009, the 2009-2012 period isn't really different than the stretches before and after. And, with regards to them, Gronk's back holding up better than Easley's banjo string knees makes a huge difference in the injury gamble department, and I'm not really sure that you're looking to call AHern a big positive with what's now known.

Kraft needs to butt out, or risk becoming Jerruh 2.0.