Why the BB vs Brady argument is unfair

brdmaverick said:

1.) The trendy stat is now.....Brady has 2 playoff victories without BB, but BB only has 1 without Brady
This drives me nuts. Should we just not even consider the two Super Bowl titles that BB was a major factor with the Giants. Why does that conveniently get thrown out in the trash.

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Maybe because the argument is how good of a HC is Belichick without Brady and since he wasn't HC for those 2 championships in NY, they kinda don't really count?

It's unfair because it's a players game and the QB is the most important position by far and we had the greatest one of all time. The answer is obvious.

farn said:

People are YELLING about whether Paul M or John L was the best instead of just enjoying listening the the great tunes....

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It would be like saying that George Martin was more important.

2000: Who drafted Brady with **** Rhebein's recommendation? Who kept Brady on as the FOURTH QB?
2001: Who elevated Brady over Damon Huard? Who decided to stick with Brady when Bledsoe was healthy enough to play? Who still started Brady in SB XXXVI when Bledsoe had the only passing TD in the playoffs (at that point).
2002: Who traded Bledsoe to Buffalo?
2008: Who kept Cassel on the roster despite a downright terrible pre-season? Who led a team with Cassell as the QB to a 10.75-5 finish?
2014: Who drafted Garopollo and Brisset? Both of whom that have started at least 10+ games in the NFL.

Belichick knows QB's....and how to build a team. He simply never had anything like Brady....when Jimmy and Jacoby were drafted...Tom Brady was 36 years old....going on 37.

Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, and maybe Ben Roethlisberger all will be done by age 38......

What Brady has done is UNPRECEDENTED........he holds the all time records for statistical seasons by 40, 41, 42, and 43 year old QB's. Also, he is 2nd in the NFL for he longest tenured player with one team (Hanson, Detroit).

And the oldest players in NFL history are mostly kickers.....George Blanda retired at 48...but at that point he was a kicker/back up QB.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

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Stuff like this is the reason there’s such a counter reaction, which then gets interpreted as anti-Bill merely because it’s pro-sanity.

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That quote is dead-on, though. Surely Belichick has had a role in the way Brady approaches the game today. If you don’t think he’s taking lessons to Tampa Bay that he learned in New England, I’m not sure what to say.

unfair? are we in kindergarten?

farn said:

People are YELLING about whether Paul M or John L was the best instead of just enjoying listening the the great tunes....

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We debate it partly because there is nothing else to talk about w/the Pats other than about how our season sucked and which QB’s in the draft Belichick will pass on.

Plus Bill & Tom add fuel to the debate. They don’t say it publicly but I think they both want to prove who was more responsible.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

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Stuff like this is the reason there’s such a counter reaction, which then gets interpreted as anti-Bill merely because it’s pro-sanity.

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BB developed Brady into an elite player and dumped more football knowledge than the sum of the people on this board have into him. Which only worked because Brady was exactly the type of person who is able to absorb it all, remember it and actually apply it. With most other QBs this would have not worked as well.

Saying all this doesn't have an effect on how Brady prepares or recognizes situations during a game is pretty naive. All those lessons about situational football came from somewhere. And it definitely ain't Arians.

Its mother ****ing sad that Patriot fans have devolved the greatest dynasty in League history in to a Jimmy Johnson / Jerry Jones whos more responsible argument... smh... freaking sad

Steve:Section 102 said:

It's a player's game.

~ Bill Belichick

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Practice preparation becomes game reality

~ Bill Belichick

You will win or lose games on the practice field. There is no such thing as being a gameday player.

~ Ernie Adams, DYJ #1

dreighver said:

That quote is dead-on, though. Surely Belichick has had a role in the way Brady approaches the game today. If you don’t think he’s taking lessons to Tampa Bay that he learned in New England, I’m not sure what to say.

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Because that it a totally consistent argument we do with all athletes...allocate much of the credit of a great athlete to life lessons they get to former coaches.

Manning in Denver was due to the lessons from Dungy, right? I’m sure you make the same point about Adam Vinatieri with the Colts, Jimmy Garoppolo with the 49ers, and when a former Patriots player fails in a subsequent role, you’d clarify that it was due to poor lessons on leadership by Bill?

If Brady had fallen on his face in Tampa, would you really be arguing that Bill’s bad lessons and mentorship caused him to fail?

This off-season. the main points were that Brady was helped tremendously by opponent-specific coaching insights, ingeniously tailored game plans, the superior chameleon system, and Bill’s film breakdowns.

Now that those things no longer seem credible, you just move the goalposts to an absurd argument that life lessons along the way - from Belichick - are in any way responsible for Brady’s success in Tampa in way that requires special recognition.

You understand the argument being made is not a simple truism that everyone owes to past influences and teachers. That was not what he was saying, and you’re aware of that.

I do not see how this season tells me anything. Pats were clearly in a re-build and lost much more than just Brady while the Bucs were a talented team whose main issue was a turnover prone QB. Replacing him with Brady and adding Gronk, AB, Fournette and others made them a very talented team. Brady has played great and is a big reason they are in the conference championship game but I am not surprised by it especially after seeing what he has done the past 20 years.

If for some reason Andy Reid has retired and BB took over the Chiefs and Brady had signed with the Bengals I would also not be praising BB for likely being in the AFCCG or blaming Brady for a 6-10 record.

Both Brady and BB need talented teams to be successful. The Patriots are in their first true rebuild in 20 years and have a lot of work to do. BB certainly made decisions that brought them to where they are but neither of them would still be playing this weekend if they had stayed together. Extrapolating completely different circumstances and trying to draw conclusions from them seems disingenuous to me.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Because that it a totally consistent argument we do with all athletes...allocate much of the credit of a great athlete to life lessons they get to former coaches.

Manning in Denver was due to the lessons from Dungy, right? I’m sure you make the same point about Adam Vinatieri with the Colts, Jimmy Garoppolo with the 49ers, and when a former Patriots player fails in a subsequent role, you’d clarify that it was due to poor lessons on leadership by Bill?

If Brady had fallen on his face in Tampa, would you really be arguing that Bill’s bad lessons and mentorship caused him to fail?

This off-season. the main points were that Brady was helped tremendously by opponent-specific coaching insights, ingeniously tailored game plans, the superior chameleon system, and Bill’s film breakdowns.

Now that those things no longer seem credible, you just move the goalposts to an absurd argument that life lessons along the way - from Belichick - are in any way responsible for Brady’s success in Tampa in way that requires special recognition.

You understand the argument being made is not a simple truism that everyone owes to past influences and teachers. That was not what he was saying, and you’re aware of that.

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Fantastic post. I think what we learned this year is that Brady is the very definition of a culture changer. Listening to his Tampa teammates and coaches has reinforced what most of us already knew - his leadership, competitive drive and relentless preparation will transform any team into a winner.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Because that it a totally consistent argument we do with all athletes...allocate much of the credit of a great athlete to life lessons they get to former coaches.

Manning in Denver was due to the lessons from Dungy, right? I’m sure you make the same point about Adam Vinatieri with the Colts, Jimmy Garoppolo with the 49ers, and when a former Patriots player fails in a subsequent role, you’d clarify that it was due to poor lessons on leadership by Bill?

If Brady had fallen on his face in Tampa, would you really be arguing that Bill’s bad lessons and mentorship caused him to fail?

This off-season. the main points were that Brady was helped tremendously by opponent-specific coaching insights, ingeniously tailored game plans, the superior chameleon system, and Bill’s film breakdowns.

Now that those things no longer seem credible, you just move the goalposts to an absurd argument that life lessons along the way - from Belichick - are in any way responsible for Brady’s success in Tampa in way that requires special recognition.

You understand the argument being made is not a simple truism that everyone owes to past influences and teachers. That was not what he was saying, and you’re aware of that.

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I wouldn't argue that BB is somehow responsible for what TB is doing in TB but I do think it's fair to say that BB helped Brady become what he is today. In the context of the "who was more valuable" BS argument that comment is basically in support of "they were both valuable to each other" retort.

BB drafted Brady. Great coaches and team builders find and nurture exceptional players.

Horse>Cart

Wozzy said:

BB drafted Brady. Great coaches and team builders find and nurture exceptional players.

Horse>Cart

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And carried him as a fourth QB which was basically a wasted roster spot.

Wozzy said:

BB drafted Brady. Great coaches and team builders find and nurture exceptional players.

Horse>Cart

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Brady was a fluke.

BB had no idea that Brady was this good. If he did he would not have waited until pick 199.

Belichick has 0 Super Bowls without Brady.

We saw the Cam nightmare.

Triumph said:

Brady was a fluke.

BB had no idea that Brady was this good. If he did he would not have waited until pick 199.

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Nobody did. But BB drafted him and carried him as a fourth QB. At least a little credit is due.

Triumph said:

Belichick has 0 Super Bowls without Brady.

We saw the Cam nightmare.

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Brady has 0 Super Bowls without BB. And?