Debate Brady vs Belichick?

ashley · Jan 8, 2021

crawhammer said:
What's your point? Bill's untouchable in your world? Too bad, get over it, I'm bringing up obviously questionable decisions by Belichick that have significantly impacted the overcome of entire seasons. They're worth discussing. Create an In Bill We Trust thread and see where that takes you.

You need a dictionary bub. It's not conjecture to say Belichick benched Butler for a disciplinary reason. We know Butler was dressed and played one ST snap so we know he was healthy enough to play. We know Butler went from 100% of defensive snaps to 0%. We know Eric Rowe played his highest percentage of snaps for the season by far. We know Rowe played incompetently in the Super Bowl as did Richards and Bademosi. We know the pass defense got shredded and gave up 41 points. We know despite a historic output from the Patriots offense, they lost the game. So it stands to reason that the benching of Butler led to the Patriots losing the Super Bowl.

Whatever the reason was for disciplining Butler, we know it didn't warrant his release from the team or being entirely inactive for the game. We know Belichick had Butler at his disposal to insert him into the game at anytime yet he chose not to despite the disaster unfolding before him. We know Belichick intentionally made a decision (benching Butler), despite having an alternative (playing Butler), and it blew up in his face. For that he deserves to be roundly criticized at least.

I think Brady justifiably got tired of Belichick's nonsense. Brady's also questioned the Butler benching, if somewhat discreetly, but it was clear he didn't agree with it. Belichick also was failing to surround Brady with talent, which happened repeatedly throughout Brady's years in NE. Belichick was ****ing Brady around with the contracts and once Brady asked for the 'no franchise' clause it was apparent he would be leaving the team. Had Belichick not greased the skids for Brady's departure, I think he would have chosen to end his career as a Patriot. He clearly has plenty of football still left in him which Belichick totally miscalculated. For that Belichick deserves to be roundly criticized as well.

It's not nitpicking. These are high profile decisions that cost the team games and rings. It's all fair game. It unfolds before us, we see the consequences of his decisions, and we draw our conclusions. Disagreement is inevitable. I don't get the resistance to an honest debate.

I think in the end, Bill won us a lot more games than he lost us, just like Tom did, the two GOATS!!!

crawhammer · Jan 8, 2021

ashley1992 said:
The only thing I would say to that is two years at the Super Bowl, when Bill was putting on a coaching clinic against one of the bright young coaches in the league, nobody questioned him.I highly doubt that in two years, his coaching has diminished.He needs players, just like every coach.

Goff lost his mind that night; he wilted under the bright lights of the moment. He was way late on one throw to Cooks who was running into the end zone wide open. Even still, Cooks should have pulled in the would-be TD reception. Cooks also dropped a perfectly thrown pass in the end zone late in the game. He had a good game otherwise but those two drops were killers. Pats D played well and Belichick deserves credit for an effective game plan. To me though it was more about Goff's inadequacies which likely will be the downfall of that team again.

The real gem of that postseason was the road win at Kansas City. The three consecutive conversions on 3rd-and-10 were as special as anything Brady has accomplished in his career.

Hyped · Jan 8, 2021

We cannot really debate this for another 4-5 years. By that time, both guys will have retired......BB I think is only in it to eclipse Shula's record....we need to give BB a chance to rebuild the team before we judge, IMO. Brady was able to slide into a loaded team.

PatsWSB47 · Jan 8, 2021

Hyped said:
We cannot really debate this for another 4-5 years. By that time, both guys will have retired......BB I think is only in it to eclipse Shula's record....we need to give BB a chance to rebuild the team before we judge, IMO. Brady was able to slide into a loaded team.

Brady slid into a 7-9 team that wasted all the talent. Brady transformed the team into a winning team.

crawhammer · Jan 8, 2021

Hyped said:
We cannot really debate this for another 4-5 years. By that time, both guys will have retired......BB I think is only in it to eclipse Shula's record....we need to give BB a chance to rebuild the team before we judge, IMO. Brady was able to slide into a loaded team.

He's 43! and still capable of playing elite football. There doesn't appear to be any drop-off in arm strength, accuracy or capacity to diagnose a defense. Even his mobility looks unchanged. He's also meeting the demands of Arians' downfield passing. What he's doing at age 43 is remarkable. People can say whoever other quarterback would be just as effective in Tampa's loaded offense but those quarterbacks are in the prime years of their careers.

Let's not forget too that Evans and Godwin were dealing with various injuries in the first half of the season and Antonio Brown didn't get there until week 9. Gronk also had to get back in playing shape and O.J. Howard went down for the season in week 4.

Brady has instilled a winning culture for Tampa Bay and he's transformed that offense into an elite unit. Brady's been a grand slam for Arians.

amfootball · Jan 8, 2021

crawhammer said:
He's 43! and still capable of playing elite football. There doesn't appear to be any drop-off in arm strength, accuracy or capacity to diagnose a defense. Even his mobility looks unchanged. He's also meeting the demands of Arians' downfield passing. What he's doing at age 43 is remarkable. People can say whoever other quarterback would be just as effective in Tampa's loaded offense but those quarterbacks are in the prime years of their careers.

Let's not forget too that Evans and Godwin were dealing with various injuries in the first half of the season and Antonio Brown didn't get there until week 9. Gronk also had to get back in playing shape and O.J. Howard went down for the season in week 4.

Brady has instilled a winning culture for Tampa Bay and he's transformed that offense into an elite unit. Brady's been a grand slam for Arians.

The Patriot Way was the Brady Way.

Ice_Ice_Brady · Jan 8, 2021

The Saints have been absolutely stacked for the last four years. They have the best offensive line in football, Kamara, Thomas, Cook, Sanders. Payton is a phenomenal coach. Carmichael has been the OC since 2009. The coaching, roster, and continuity is all there.

The reason they haven’t even made a Super Bowl is because, like every team, they have faced do-or-die moments at critical times in the postseason and Brees has failed. I won’t say choked because that’s not the point.

The point is this: Brady has played 41 postseason games. He has lost 11. He has 9 fourth quarter comebacks and 13 game winning drives. In three postseason losses (Super Bowls) he also led comebacks to give the Patriots the lead in the fourth quarter.

Organizations, coaches, strategies, are looked at through the lens of their ultimate successes or failures. Supposing Brady had performed like great QB but not an otherworldly demi-god in late, clutch situations, time after time, the Patriots would probably have 2-3 championships.

The Colts had a hall of fame GM, hall of fame head coach, outstanding overall roster that was good enough for an automatic 12+ wins in the 2000s. Why didn’t they win 2-3 championships instead of 1? We all know the answer. And many of these elite QBs like Brees, Rodgers, Manning, etc simply have not gotten the job done like Brady when it’s all on the line.

Postseason
Brady - 41 games, 13 game winning drives, 9 fourth quarter comebacks
Rodgers/Brees/Manning - 62 games, 7 game winning drives, 5 fourth quarter comebacks

Imagine how different the narratives would be about Belichick, Payton, McCarthy, Dungy, etc. if this massive discrepancy didn’t exist and if the distribution were evened out? This isn’t coaching; it’s Brady.

Tunescribe · Jan 8, 2021

sb1 said:
Even if there was a good reason he didn't even put Butler back in the game when it was obvious the defense was getting shredded without him. I don't see any reason whatsoever to justify that.

Even in the absolute worst case scenario - like say Bill finding out Butler ratted Tom and the ballboys out to the league to start Deflategate you still don't bench him for a game and cost your team a SB. It's a Super Bowl, not a Jets regular season game. There will be another Jets game, there was no guarantee there would ever be another Patriots Super Bowl with BB as coach.

A couple things: I agree that all being equal a healthy, prepared Butler playing in that game would have increased the Pats' chances for victory, but you can't assume it would have GUARANTEED they win. Second, and I'm just theorizing here: most elite organizations are built on foundational cardinal rules that if violated bring consequences specified in advance. If Butler crossed the line knowing what it could cost him, whether a preseason game or even the Super Bowl, his fate perhaps was predetermined. Obviously BB has the power to make exceptions so he likely reasoned that what happened was in the team's best interests whether then, long-term from an organizational perspective, or both. From afar Butler's benching sure seems unnecessarily draconian but my guess is we might think differently given full context.

Tunescribe · Jan 8, 2021

crawhammer said:
crawhammer said:

You need a dictionary bub. It's not conjecture to say Belichick benched Butler for a disciplinary reason. We know Butler was dressed and played one ST snap so we know he was healthy enough to play. We know Butler went from 100% of defensive snaps to 0%. We know Eric Rowe played his highest percentage of snaps for the season by far. We know Rowe played incompetently in the Super Bowl as did Richards and Bademosi. We know the pass defense got shredded and gave up 41 points. We know despite a historic output from the Patriots offense, they lost the game. So it stands to reason that the benching of Butler led to the Patriots losing the Super Bowl.

Whatever the reason was for disciplining Butler, we know it didn't warrant his release from the team or being entirely inactive for the game. We know Belichick had Butler at his disposal to insert him into the game at anytime yet he chose not to despite the disaster unfolding before him. We know Belichick intentionally made a decision (benching Butler), despite having an alternative (playing Butler), and it blew up in his face. For that he deserves to be roundly criticized at least.

Click to expand...

Here is what you DON'T know: the specific circumstances leading to Butler's benching and whether his benching/release were warranted. Beyond that what you offer is (drum roll, please) -- CONJECTURE.

con·jec·ture

/kənˈjekCHər/
noun

1.an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information: "conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied"
verb
- 1.form an opinion or supposition about (something) on the basis of incomplete information: "many conjectured that the jury could not agree"

Doctor DDS · Jan 8, 2021

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
The reason they haven’t even made a Super Bowl is because, like every team, they have faced do-or-die moments at critical times in the postseason and Brees has failed. I won’t say choked because that’s not the point.

I would consider that partially true for Brees. He has not always come through but he had been clutch several times in the post season only to see his defense fail the team late.

Led the Saints back from a 17-0 deficit to the Vikings in 2017 by scoring 24 points in final 16 minutes including a go ahead TD with 3 minutes left then the "game winning" FG with 25 seconds left - only to see the defense give up that crazy 61 yard TD to Diggs as time ran out.

Led the Saints to 18 4th quarter points against the 49ers in 2012 including a potential game winning TD with a minute and a half left just to see the defense blow it and give up a TD in final 9 seconds.

In 2018 he led the team down for what would have been a game ending FG as time expired but due to the missed pass interference call they instead took the lead with a minute and a half left. The defense then let the Rams go down and tie it. He did have a chance to win it in OT when the Saints got the ball first.

Passed for 2 TDs, 0 picks and over 400 yards when the Saints lost to the Seahawks 41-36 in 2010.

Brees in not nearly as good as Brady but he has generally played well in the postseason. 16 games - 34 TDs, 12 Picks, 310 Yards a game. Rating 99.6. Certainly not in Brady's class but he is nothing like Manning was.

sb1 · Jan 8, 2021

Tunescribe said:
A couple things: I agree that all being equal a healthy, prepared Butler playing in that game would have increased the Pats' chances for victory, but you can't assume it would have GUARANTEED they win. Second, and I'm just theorizing here: most elite organizations are built on foundational cardinal rules that if violated bring consequences specified in advance. If Butler crossed the line knowing what it could cost him, whether a preseason game or even the Super Bowl, his fate perhaps was predetermined. Obviously BB has the power to make exceptions so he likely reasoned that what happened was in the team's best interests whether then, long-term from an organizational perspective, or both. From afar Butler's benching sure seems unnecessarily draconian but my guess is we might think differently given full context.

No I can't guarantee anything for sure. But Butler being out meant among the obvious like Jordan Richards at SS and Chung out of position and Bademosi on the field at all - the Pats were also down one of the best tackling CB's in the league. We saw the impact of that all game. They were awful on third and fourth down. And the Eagles punted once. I'm sure Butler's tackling ability could have forced at least one more punt instead of a score and in a one score game that makes the difference.

That gave the Pats a better chance to win? No way. If Butler blatantly crossed some line, we would have known by now. It would have leaked.

Instead Bill gambled by doing it - and lost big time. You don't do that in a Super Bowl. I don't care if you are Bill and you have GOAT Tom Brady - there are no guarantees for anyone getting back to a SB. They did, but it was not a certainty and there's no reason to punt one away just to send a message to a player.

Hyped · Jan 8, 2021

PatsWSB47 said:
Brady slid into a 7-9 team that wasted all the talent. Brady transformed the team into a winning team.

That was a 7-9 team that:

- A top 10 defense, especially against the run.
- Legit set of receivers in Evans and Godwin.
- Legit set of tight ends....and they lost Howard, but gained Gronk.
- Added a really good OL-man in Wirfs.
- Added AB
- Added Forunette and McCoy to back up Jones II who has had a good season.
- Replaced a QB who threw THIRTY interceptions....THIRTY!...with a QB who has never thrown more than 14. That's a difference of 16 extra offensive possessions for the opponent vs. the Bucs D.

That's a 4 game improvement....whereas the Pats regressed by 5 games.

Tony2046 · Jan 8, 2021

Brady6 said:
We would all be foolish to think that BB is the same coach he is today as he was back in the early 2000s. He is a boomer and he is experiencing the same challenges in this day and age as other boomers, which is it is hard to find yes men who do things well now a days. The first thing BB scouts at the combine is a players ability to be a yes man. Players who come in highly touted seldom if ever succeed with Belichick because those types of players have egos already and Belichick cannot stand that, players who end up having to sign as UDFA or taken late in the draft they do good under him because they come in as long shots so they do and say the right things, but the minute they start to think highly of themselves (Malcolm Butler) they are shipped off.

I kind of agree. I think he does as you say to build a cohesive locker room. He doesn't want a cancer. He does bring in the "troubled" player now and then. I don't think it's for a yes man rather a good teammate.

Hyped · Jan 8, 2021

crawhammer said:
He's 43! and still capable of playing elite football. There doesn't appear to be any drop-off in arm strength, accuracy or capacity to diagnose a defense. Even his mobility looks unchanged. He's also meeting the demands of Arians' downfield passing. What he's doing at age 43 is remarkable. People can say whoever other quarterback would be just as effective in Tampa's loaded offense but those quarterbacks are in the prime years of their careers.

Let's not forget too that Evans and Godwin were dealing with various injuries in the first half of the season and Antonio Brown didn't get there until week 9. Gronk also had to get back in playing shape and O.J. Howard went down for the season in week 4.

Brady has instilled a winning culture for Tampa Bay and he's transformed that offense into an elite unit. Brady's been a grand slam for Arians.

Oh, I didn't mean to downplay Brady's achievements....

My larger point is that had Brady stayed in NE...I think we are a 10-6/11-5 team...and probably the #6/#7 seed this year. Brady made a good decision to jump ship....he has a better chance of reaching the SB with the Bucs than with the Pats. The Pats are only better than the Bucs in the following areas:

- Punter
- Punt Returner
- ST coverage units
- Secondary (at full strength)
- Offensive line (at full strength)
- Coaching

Brady needs tools to work with...and he has that and some in Tampa. Can you imagine Brady throwing to Byrd, Meyers, Harry, Izzo, White, and etc...this year? He would be slamming his helmet coming off the field at least 10-15 times this year.

And BB deserves to be judged with a clean slate...he now has a blank portrait to paint on...let's wait 4-5 years and we will see who was more important.

My opinion as of now: Both were the best together....but twisting my arm...I take Brady....because he can win despite an aggressive coach like Arians...and BB hasn't shown that he can win with an "adequate" QB yet....

crawhammer · Jan 8, 2021

Tunescribe said:
Here is what you DON'T know: the specific circumstances leading to Butler's benching and whether his benching/release were warranted. Beyond that what you offer is (drum roll, please) -- CONJECTURE.

I gave you ten+ factual statements for heaven's sake. WTF! stay on topic and possibly we can get through this in one piece. You're merely diverting attention away from 99% of what I'm saying by focusing entirely on Belichick's reason for benching Butler. If the transgression was egregious enough then Butler wouldn't have been in full uniform standing on the sideline. He wouldn't have been on the field for a ST snap. He wouldn't have even been in the stadium.

Please explain why Butler was in full uniform, standing on the sideline with the team, and on the field for a ST snap. You're endlessly rattling on about "we don't know Bill's reasoning" so therefore we can't appraise any aspect or consequence of the benching. Total bullsh*t. At best Belichick's action was indecisive and half-witted. It makes no sense whatsoever to bench a player then have him stand on the sideline in uniform and play only on special teams while watching a collection of inferior chumps fall allover themselves playing "defense."

Evidently Belichick was attempting to humiliate Butler by showing him how unimportant he was to the team's chances of winning. Of course Belichick would believe his ridiculous ploy would work because he's an egomaniac. It completely backfired. The defense was completely disheveled, it cost them the game, and Belichick has been roundly criticized for his handling of the situation. At the very least it was inconsistent and nonsensical... again benched but in uniform and playing on special teams.

And if Butler broke some "foundational cardinal rule" then it was completely lost on the leader of the team... Brady said he couldn't figure out why Butler wasn't on the field during the game and then called Butler "an incredible teammate" after the fact.

I'm pretty sure that completely debunks...

Tunescribe said:
Obviously BB has the power to make exceptions so he likely reasoned that what happened was in the team's best interests whether then, long-term from an organizational perspective, or both. From afar Butler's benching sure seems unnecessarily draconian but my guess is we might think differently given full context.

Brady's not "from afar." He's as close as you can get to needing to know the reasons for why hugely consequential decisions are made.

sb1 · Jan 8, 2021

Hyped said:
Oh, I didn't mean to downplay Brady's achievements....

My larger point is that had Brady stayed in NE...I think we are a 10-6/11-5 team...and probably the #6/#7 seed this year. Brady made a good decision to jump ship....he has a better chance of reaching the SB with the Bucs than with the Pats. The Pats are only better than the Bucs in the following areas:

- Punter
- Punt Returner
- ST coverage units
- Secondary (at full strength)
- Offensive line (at full strength)
- Coaching

Brady needs tools to work with...and he has that and some in Tampa. Can you imagine Brady throwing to Byrd, Meyers, Harry, Izzo, White, and etc...this year? He would be slamming his helmet coming off the field at least 10-15 times this year.

And BB deserves to be judged with a clean slate...he now has a blank portrait to paint on...let's wait 4-5 years and we will see who was more important.

My opinion as of now: Both were the best together....but twisting my arm...I take Brady....because he can win despite an aggressive coach like Arians...and BB hasn't shown that he can win with an "adequate" QB yet....

Hard to say what this team would be if Brady stayed here.
I think Brady's presence definitely flips the Broncos loss to a W, possibly flips Bills 1, Chiefs, Dolphins 2, Seahawks. Doubtful he flips the Niners, Bills 2, Rams and Texans games. The Ravens and Jets 1 games may or may not have been flipped to a L with Brady here so who knows. He would not be happy here that's for sure. We saw that in 2019 and tbh it was not fun to watch at all.

Bill the coach from now on is going to only be as good as Bill the GM lets him be. He's got work to do.

I'd take Brady because the great QB always > the great coach. You can win with only the historically great QB (I mean Peyton Manning took Jim Caldwell to a SB and Caldwell is not a good coach) , and as we saw this year you can't win with a great coach but a crap QB and roster.

Ice_Ice_Brady · Jan 8, 2021

Doctor DDS said:
I would consider that partially true for Brees. He has not always come through but he had been clutch several times in the post season only to see his defense fail the team late.

Led the Saints back from a 17-0 deficit to the Vikings in 2017 by scoring 24 points in final 16 minutes including a go ahead TD with 3 minutes left then the "game winning" FG with 25 seconds left - only to see the defense give up that crazy 61 yard TD to Diggs as time ran out.

Led the Saints to 18 4th quarter points against the 49ers in 2012 including a potential game winning TD with a minute and a half left just to see the defense blow it and give up a TD in final 9 seconds.

In 2018 he led the team down for what would have been a game ending FG as time expired but due to the missed pass interference call they instead took the lead with a minute and a half left. The defense then let the Rams go down and tie it. He did have a chance to win it in OT when the Saints got the ball first.

Passed for 2 TDs, 0 picks and over 400 yards when the Saints lost to the Seahawks 41-36 in 2010.

Brees in not nearly as good as Brady but he has generally played well in the postseason. 16 games - 34 TDs, 12 Picks, 310 Yards a game. Rating 99.6. Certainly not in Brady's class but he is nothing like Manning was.

In the 2017 game, he threw two interceptions early on. So yes, he still did okay after that, but overall he was a disappointment.

2018...that missed PI call overlooks context. He was horrendous in the second half. The pass that setup the missed call was a massively under thrown duck that miraculously landed in the hands of Ginn. Then in OT, guess who won the coin toss then threw an interception?

Generally playing well in the postseason is pretty subjective. Most QBs will have stats similar to their career stats, adjusted for opponents, weather, etc.

I’m referring to specific drives where the season is in fact on the line.

Both Manning and Brees have had the ball to start OT in the postseason and both threw interceptions, whereas Brady led two TD drives. Suppose Manning and Brees had thrown the TDs and Brady the two interceptions. Two less Super Bowls for the Patriots. Maybe another for the Saints/Broncos. Now Brady has four and Manning/Brees four.

What did coaching have to do with those critical plays made by the quarterbacks? Nothing. Payton, Dungy, Belichick all put their quarterbacks in the same position, capable of winning. That Brady actually succeeded so many times does not mean Belichick was a better coach than Payton or Dungy in those situations. Brady was better than Brees and Manning. Many times.

These events - critical drives with the season on the line - cause gigantic swings in legacy and perception, not just for the QB but entire organization, even though the QB is by far the most responsible.

Kontradiction · Jan 8, 2021

Tunescribe said:
We don't have full context on BB's Butler decision because BB hasn't shared it publicly. Anything short of that is conjecture. I can't think of a specific example at the moment but I've questioned decisions he has made in the past and then changed my mind when more information came out. But sure, you can weigh things on the merits as you see them and issue verdicts, it's what fans do.

So, in your opinion, what other reason could BB have benched him for outside of the reported disciplinary issue? Do you theorize that he believed Eric Rowe was the better corner at that moment?

sb1 · Jan 8, 2021

KontradictioN said:
So, in your opinion, what other reason could BB have benched him for outside of the reported disciplinary issue? Do you theorize that he believed Eric Rowe was the better corner at that moment?

Rowe and Richards

BeST cHAnCe To WiN

SHOWTIME15 · Jan 8, 2021

Tunescribe said:
We don't have full context on BB's Butler decision because BB hasn't shared it publicly. Anything short of that is conjecture. I can't think of a specific example at the moment but I've questioned decisions he has made in the past and then changed my mind when more information came out. But sure, you can weigh things on the merits as you see them and issue verdicts, it's what fans do.

Sign Baby Brady mentioned at the time that Butler was caught smoking weed the night before. I think he's got connections within the Pats organization, not sure though.

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