PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Debate Brady vs Belichick?


Pats have had the highest or one of the highest cap hit invested in secondary for last 5 years consistently. Look it up.

Don’t tell me that doesn’t help a secondary position coach.

Devin, Chung, Gilmore cost $ and were vets way before steve showed up. This is a pass happy league, corners are prized like left tackles are. Like I said he's also spent big $ on OLine and high picks at WR and RB. The guy is all about winning. I don't buy the nepotism thing at all. I'm as upset as you are over the lack of talent but I think the root cause is a totally inept offensive coordinator at evaluating talent or developing talent.
 
I don't buy the nepotism thing at all. I'm as upset as you are over the lack of talent but I think the root cause is a totally inept offensive coordinator at evaluating talent or developing talent.
It’s everybody’s fault but Bill’s, got it! Caserio handle the bad trades, the offensives coach make the bad picks. But when there is a good trade or a good offensive pick, it’s Bill is a genius.

Bill controls everything, he doesn’t do a trade that he is not ok with and he doesn’t pick a player that he is not ok with.

you can’t have it both ways. He can’t get all the praises when the team is winning and no blame when the team is losing!

Bill is the NE version of Godell. he is the judge, the jury and the executioner!
 
Never will be solved. It’s always more than the sum of its parts.

I say symbiosis. They were needed for each other.

Both were vital—Brady even more so. I’m
 
Are you saying BB’s 135 games as HC without Brady is insufficient to judge him? How many would be sufficient?
Sounds to me like you’re saying we should cherry pick and exclude Bill’s career with Brady to judge him as a coach including a year where he had a bad QB. I disagree.

Also his Browns career means nothing to me just his Pats career.
 
Last edited:
So you admit BB sucks as GM at least.
Bill the GM has made a lot of mistakes. But this is about Bill the HC. He’s getting in the HOF for that - not his GM career.

Bill the Gm for sure has work to do to fix the team, I will not acknowledge Bill is a bad head coach looking only at his 6-7 team win now with a roster almost completely devoid of NFL talent at most positions especially QB. Lombardi and Shula wouldn’t win many games either with a team like that.

coaches don’t win games, his team does. That’s why Brady absolutely was more responsible for the dynasty. But great coaches make the best out of what they have a lot more often than not. I believe BB the HC has done that this year.
 
Last edited:
You make it sound self-evident. When we’re asserting he might not be even an average HC. He just had Brady, that’s all.
I doubt an average coach wins 6 rings. An average coach doesn’t get a roster devoid of talent to 6-7 wins. Nor have the attention to detail that designs defenses that solves the greatest show on turf, that frustrated Peyton Manning in his prime or has Malcolm Butler intercept that pass.

“Great players need coaches and great coaches need players” - Tom Brady.

Is he wrong?
 
Last edited:
The team sucks, everyone agrees with that. But the coaching has sucked too, especially on the defensive side of the ball. The strength of their defense is their secondary so they to had force teams into passing and they just couldn't do it.

They rank 27th in run defense, 26th in rushing attempts against, and have the fewest number of pass attempts against which is not playing into their strength. It's up to the coaching staff to scheme up at least a moderately effective run defense that would drive up the pass attempts and create more opportunities for turnovers, etc. They are second in INT's but second to last in forced fumbles. They couldn't stop the run or create turnovers against the run. Abysmal failure by the coaching staff.

The offense is just a horrid mess of personnel. The OL is the only reasonably stacked position group (and free agency is probably going to change that for the worse). There's not much you can do with an offense that is dearth of talent at QB, WR and TE.

However, it's pretty inexcusable that Belichick has so stubbornly stuck with Newton, even with Newton clearly breaking down physically and mentally as a passing quarterback. Newton looked so incredibly inept on Monday night; he just cannot throw a football anymore. Literally cannot throw. And I know Stidham has played like hot garbage in limited opportunities but Belichick should have turned to Stidham full-time after he benched Newton in the Rams game. Stidham could have gotten first team reps and prepared as the starter. Then we could have gotten a more realistic look at Stidham in meaningful game action. By the time he entered the game Monday night, the rest of the team had already quit by halftime.

Newton is not a functional quarterback anymore. Stidham probably sucks but he at least looks to be functional and may have a sliver of hope to run an NFL offense whereas Newton should never take another snap.
I agree it is frustrating that we are stuck with Newton, it worked for the first few games but in the end it was a failed signing. But since Brady was gone there was no alternative. Stidham isn’t an alternative. He is not a prospect and there’s no need to look at him. That’s already been done and it seems he isn’t very good. A week with the starters won’t make a lousy QB good.

After this season let’s hope this never happens again. And with a better QB and a real passing offense we can finally have a real look at Bill the coach post Brady.
 
Last edited:
Why is the call of removing BB as GM batshit crazy?
Maybe because that terrible GM just had an unprecedented run of 8 straight AFCCG's and 4 Super Bowls in 5 years? Maybe because most of us understand that the salary cap is an actual thing and having the most successful GM in NFL history leading this rebuild vs some random new person seems like a much higher probability of success? Assume you wanted the Celtics to fire GM Auerbach after the 77 and 78 seasons when the team was at the bottom of the league. Why give him a chance to rebuild as he had obviously lost it?

BB has certainly made mistakes the last several years. His attempt to give the 2019 team a real chance at the Super Bowl backfired when Gordon, AB and Sanu did not work out and he lost draft capital and cap space. You can certainly argue that he should have held onto Brady for a couple more years like the Celtics did with Bird in the late 80's as the beloved icon of the team and they would have been better in the short term but I have yet to hear how that approach would have worked under the cap and led to another serious SB run vs just postponing the rebuild. I love Brady and hate seeing him on another team but I certainly understand the logic behind the move.

BB conceded that the cap situation limited options this season (which was obvious to anyone paying attention) and he decided to bite the bullet vs manipulating cap hits. He took a flyer on Cam and that failed. His roster decisions and contract maneuvering the past several years were wildly successful in the short term but have left them in a tough spot as his draft failures did not leave the Patriots with the cheap replacements they needed to manage the cap. He certainly deserves criticism for his drafting since 2016 (anything before that is irrelevant to current team as they are all past rookie contracts anyways) and needs a huge year this offseason. Amazingly the Pats now find themselves in one of the best cap positions in the league.

Look at where many of the recent the recent Super Bowl teams are right now - Panthers, Falcons, Eagles, 49ers - it is not easy to stay on top of the league. When you win you end up with a lot of players wanting to get paid - in a capped league you cannot keep all of them. The Pats can certainly become one of those teams that fires coaches and GMS every few years in an attempt to get better - I for one hope they don't.
 
Last edited:
Because BILL did not want to cut him. BTW, absent a favorable call on a fumble and heroics by the kicker, the Pats never win that first championship.
It's bad enough that we've had to listen to whining from the Raiduhs and their fans about a legitimate call that was made many times before and after that game. Hearing it from Pats fans 20 years later is worse.
The Pats also don't win that game without a great stop by the defense on a 2nd and 3rd down and 2 that gave them the ball back for the tying drive.
The Pats also don't win that game without Brady's flawless passing in a blizzard on the tying and winning drives.
Maybe Bill saw how special Brady was and that's why he didn't cut him. I'll thank him for that, but it's the players who made the plays and Brady was one of the more important.
 
You just laid out some abstract facts in a vacuum, without any of the contextual, relevant details provided, as you were quoting the very person who provided said contextual details.

To claim that Brady = playoffs, Belichick /=/ playoffs, without any regard for anything else (including the circumstances/personnel, etc) is useless. It's a good example of correlation /=/ causation, and disregards a lot of the other important variables.
So Brady's team has better personnel than Bill's. Whose fault is that?
 
So Brady's team has better personnel than Bill's. Whose fault is that?
That is Bill the Gms mistakes or at least whoever is giving him advice.

I hope with Brady tearing it up and Bill getting his legacy questioned that it’s motivation for Bill to do what is needed to get this rebuild going and turn this around. If he needs to give the Gm role to someone else or to listen to different people- awesome.
 
Why is the call of removing BB as GM batshit crazy? He’a drafted horribly for years. And whiffed on trades repeatedly lately with this Sanu disaster being the latest. The team composition sucks today (including the decision to let Brady walk) because we made some horrible front office decisions.
Please name another GM who has won the SB in the past 3 years who has never missed on a draft pick and set the team up to have a **** ton of cap space to rebuild when everyone and their mother knew this was a rebuilding year.

Bat. ****. Crazy.
 
Lennon and McCartney had some solo hits. So did George Harrison. Ringo didn’t. Noone says Ringo was the most valuable Beatle.

Let’s see what BB does solo. It’s been crap so far. Brady is having some hits solo.

All evidence points to BB having no hits ever with Brady. BB would have been better off nursing his legacy by keeping Brady all the way. Now he’ll get exposed.
Hey don't sell Ringo short; I love his song Photograph, among others...He's the only Beatle I've ever seen perform too...

Would've been cool too if he had joined the Who after Keith Moon died, instead of the decent but unremarkable Kenny Jones...SuperGroup!
 
Last edited:
The one exposed here is Josh McDaniels. He's failed 3 separate times without Brady - Denver, St Louis, and this season. He's trying to grab a new job before people realize he's nothing without Brady.

.
Any team foolish enough to hire Skippy as HC deserves the sh!tshow that will proceed him.
 
It’s not obvious to me that BB is a great HC or a great GM. No need to separate.

He’s just a grumpy football historian, with encyclopedic knowledge, who had Brady for QB. At best you can say he’s a good DC. There’s some evidence for that.
Yep.

The equation Bill's fanboys refuse to admit:

BB - TB = **** LeBeau.
 
That is Bill the Gms mistakes or at least whoever is giving him advice.

I hope with Brady tearing it up and Bill getting his legacy questioned that it’s motivation for Bill to do what is needed to get this rebuild going and turn this around. I think it is.
That is what drives me crazy is Bill will always get credit for the good things he has done and deservedly so but when it comes to the bad a lot of people want to bury their head in the sand. They want to blame Caserio or blame McDaniels but the buck stops with Bill. When you have all the power you get all the credit but also all the blame for the state of the roster.

I hope that the way this season has gone makes makes Bill go on an 07 type offseason roster overhaul. Buy low on some guys who can make an impact instantly. The only thing that worries me is that he is just hanging around to catch Shula and instead of investing in and developing a young QB we just get a few bridge guys that he thinks he can "win now" with over the next few years. I just don't want to kick the can down the road on finding a QB.
 
It’s everybody’s fault but Bill’s, got it! Caserio handle the bad trades, the offensives coach make the bad picks. But when there is a good trade or a good offensive pick, it’s Bill is a genius.

Bill controls everything, he doesn’t do a trade that he is not ok with and he doesn’t pick a player that he is not ok with.

you can’t have it both ways. He can’t get all the praises when the team is winning and no blame when the team is losing!

Bill is the NE version of Godell. he is the judge, the jury and the executioner!
And he has done the greatest job in the history of the sport.
 
That is what drives me crazy is Bill will always get credit for the good things he has done and deservedly so but when it comes to the bad a lot of people want to bury their head in the sand. They want to blame Caserio or blame McDaniels but the buck stops with Bill. When you have all the power you get all the credit but also all the blame for the state of the roster.

I hope that the way this season has gone makes makes Bill go on an 07 type offseason roster overhaul. Buy low on some guys who can make an impact instantly. The only thing that worries me is that he is just hanging around to catch Shula and instead of investing in and developing a young QB we just get a few bridge guys that he thinks he can "win now" with over the next few years. I just don't want to kick the can down the road on finding a QB.
The fact that there are even people running around trying to assess blame is bizarre.
In any other fan base the man would be canonized. Here his QB leaves, players opt out for covid, we have to deal with a season where the cap caught up, and after winning 3 sbs going to a 4th in the last 7 years, winning one just 2 years ago, coming off a 12-4 season, one losing season and this board is 24/7 rip belichick.
Remarkable but not surprising here.
 
...

“Great players need coaches and great coaches need players” - Tom Brady.

Is he wrong?

One thing Brady didn't say is that great players need great coaches and vice versa.
 
It's bad enough that we've had to listen to whining from the Raiduhs and their fans about a legitimate call that was made many times before and after that game.

At least say, ignoring the blatantly missed personal foul for the karate chop to the head. That rule was brand new, the refs should have ignored that too in the playoffs. Let them play! I agree so tiresome.
 


TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/18: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/17: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/16: News and Notes
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/15: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-14, Mock Draft 3.0, Gilmore, Law Rally For Bill 
Potential Patriot: Boston Globe’s Price Talks to Georgia WR McConkey
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/12: News and Notes
Not a First Round Pick? Hoge Doubles Down on Maye
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/11: News and Notes
Back
Top