Debate Brady vs Belichick?

Tompa12 said:

It means that Bill can lead a team to the playoffs with an average QB and who knows, even further and doesn’t need a HOF caliber QB to win.

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In what season where bill has been a coach in the beloved NFL have we seen this outside of the years he had Tom The Goat?

1994 with the Browns?

reid took the cheifs to the playoffs with alex smith, vikings went with kirk cousins, 49ers went to the super bowl with Jimmy G. Titans beat the pats last year with Tannehill. It happens all the time in the NFL. Bill going to the playoffs with say Jimmy G next year doesn't really showcase his greatness. He's a great coach but Tom's impact here was much greater imo.

lancerman said:

Well he left now, so nobody should complain when we had opportunities to keep him

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...and he had opportunities to stay.

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Tompa12 said:

Replace Cam with even say, Dalton what would our record be?

Point being, Cam and the offense has been so bad, that despite that, Bill is going to lead this team to likely 7-9. Even with an average QB like Dalton, we would likely be in the playoffs.

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Tompa12 said:

It means that Bill can lead a team to the playoffs with an average QB and who knows, even further and doesn’t need a HOF caliber QB to win.

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Okay? So?

Many coaches have succeeded with average QBs. How would going 7-9 this season with Cam be an accomplishment?

Matt Nagy took Mitch Trubisky to the playoffs with a 12-4 record in 2018 without that great of a roster.
Sean McDermott took Tyrod Taylor to the playoffs without a great roster
Bill Cowher took Neil O'Donnell to the Super Bowl in 1995
Lovie Smith took Rex Grossman to 13-3 and to the Super Bowl



Not to mention, Belichick has a large sample size of coaching seasons with average/slightly above average QBs, and it kind of points to him not being the coach that can win/make the playoffs with anybody. He's had Vinny Testeverde (Pro-Bowler), Drew Bledsoe (who made a Super Bowl and was an All-Pro), Matt Cassel (who made a Pro Bowl), and Cam Newton (who made a Super Bowl and was a former MVP) - who have all made the playoffs without Belichick - and across those 8 seasons, he had 2 winning seasons, 1 playoff appearance. Different teams, many years, to account for personnel/roster.

I am not saying Bill Belichick isn't a great coach, but this argument/head canon that "Belichick can win with any average QB" does not hold up to scrutiny AT ALL.

It's still a players league, and having a great QB is HUGE. If Rex Ryan had Tom Brady in 2009 and 2010, Jets win at least 1 Super Bowl with those teams.

The poll comes with a Change Vote feature... so anyone who voted for Belichick, feel free to correct yourself.

He's getting thoroughly embarrassed tonight...hell, the entire season really. The players quit on him tonight bigtime. Ouch.

crawhammer said:

He's getting thoroughly embarrassed tonight...hell, the entire season really. The players quit on him tonight bigtime. Ouch.

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Bill is punting down by 29 in the 4th. He isn’t going for the win brother

203Pat said:

Because he won the team 6 rings, never maximized his value contract wise to enable Bill to sign players, then when it came time for Bill to make a commitment to him again Bill pulled the rug out from under Brady and made him play under these goofy one year incentive laden deals.

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That’s why I’m at **** you to BB like Brady is the GOAT and still took discounts for you and this is how you repay him **** that guy man

Is this a joke? Making this conclusion based on one season of separation with covid, Patriots dealing with a large amount of opt outs, and TB going to a fairly loaded roster (and looking as pathetic as last year at times). Absurd on every level.

mikey m said:

Is this a joke? Making this conclusion based on one season of separation with covid, Patriots dealing with a large amount of opt outs, and TB going to a fairly loaded roster (and looking as pathetic as last year at times). Absurd on every level.

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Yes Tom is the one looking pathetic.

mikey m said:

Is this a joke? Making this conclusion based on one season of separation with covid, Patriots dealing with a large amount of opt outs, and TB going to a fairly loaded roster (and looking as pathetic as last year at times). Absurd on every level.

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well there are teams that aren't even sniffing the playoffs but have just as good a roster on offense as the buccanneers (who haven't been to the playoffs since 2007 btw). He deserves a lot of credit for turning that team around.

raiders, chargers, broncos hell even the falcons would all be in the playoffs if they had #12.

brady is smiling watching this game tonight

203Pat said:

Yes Tom is the one looking pathetic.

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That offense is loaded. He has been thoroughly unimpressive (if we are ignoring his age) and would have looked mediocre in the pats current offense, which BB deserves criticism for.

TinhWoodhead said:

brady is smiling watching this game tonight

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He’s relieved for sure. There is no way he is saving this mess if he stayed and he saw the writing on the wall.

Belichick gets the benefit of one bad season, if he can rebuild it then maybe he wins in the long run but right now it's Brady in a big way.

No one truly wins though unless one wins a championship, if Brady gets bounced early in Jan it's hard to call that winning when it was Super Bowl or bust for Tampa in pre season.

mikey m said:

That offense is loaded. He has been thoroughly unimpressive (if we are ignoring his age) and would have looked mediocre in the pats current offense, which BB deserves criticism for.

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Yeah he looked real rough on Saturday.

PatriotSpy said:

In what season where bill has been a coach in the beloved NFL have we seen this outside of the years he had Tom The Goat?

1994 with the Browns?

reid took the cheifs to the playoffs with alex smith, vikings went with kirk cousins, 49ers went to the super bowl with Jimmy G. Titans beat the pats last year with Tannehill. It happens all the time in the NFL. Bill going to the playoffs with say Jimmy G next year doesn't really showcase his greatness. He's a great coach but Tom's impact here was much greater imo.

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You cannot use Belichick's time with the Browns as proof of anything. He was a first time head coach and had a horrible owner who undercut him.

But you can argue that Brady wasn't the GOAT Brady in at least two of his first three Super Bowl wins. He was a pure game manager in 2001. And they won in 2003 with a defense that is easily in the top ten or fifteen greatest defenses of all time with the offense just being good not great. You can make a strong case that Belichick could have won both those seasons with several other QBs in the NFL those years.

Not taking away from Brady because he was still a huge part of those seasons, but he really didn't start to become that special, once in a lifetime QB that he was for most of his career until about 2004.

203Pat said:

Yeah he looked real rough on Saturday.

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Ok? The patriots looked great against the chargers. You're a clown.

Belichick is 22-24 without Brady on the field and no playoff appearances - I don't know how anyone can think this question is even close - Brady carried this team on his back for over a decade with so many mediocre receivers that most quarterbacks would have had no success with like Reche Caldwell as one example - Belichick owes a lot to his former quarterback - not taking a lot away from Belichick because he is a HOF coach, but its clear Brady was the face of this franchise and was more than just a quarterback to this team.

mikey m said:

That offense is loaded. He has been thoroughly unimpressive (if we are ignoring his age) and would have looked mediocre in the pats current offense, which BB deserves criticism for.

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Hard disagree. If you’ve been watching all of the games you’ve seen real development over the course of the season. And more importantly for this discussion, physically Tom has been on point all season. It’s been the lack of continuity : disjointed playcalling where the Bucs have run into issues.