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Spot on.

So what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?

This reminds me of the instructions that just came with my new microwave popcorn popper: NEVER WALK AWAY FROM THE MICROWAVE BEFORE COOKING IS COMPLETE. DOING SO MAY CAUSE POPCORN TO SMOKE, BURN, OR CATCH FIRE.
 
I don't think the airline analogy is spot on, but it does address the issue we are all going to have to deal with. There is a risk with doing everything we do every day. Some jobs are riskier then others. Playing professional football is very risky. Based on all the evidence that is out there, this disease isn't very risky at all to people under 40. If the CDC is correct and the odds of dying from this disease, if you catch it, are less then 1/2%, and if it is much much less than that for younger people, at what point do you understand that and move on with life? If a vaccine comes out that reduces the chance of catching it by 50%, does that make everything safe again? Remember 50,000 deaths from flu during flu season, if the numbers were cut in 1/2 and we only had 65000 deaths this year would you all be happy to get on with life?
 
I don't think the airline analogy is spot on, but it does address the issue we are all going to have to deal with. There is a risk with doing everything we do every day. Some jobs are riskier then others. Playing professional football is very risky. Based on all the evidence that is out there, this disease isn't very risky at all to people under 40. If the CDC is correct and the odds of dying from this disease, if you catch it, are less then 1/2%, and if it is much much less than that for younger people, at what point do you understand that and move on with life? If a vaccine comes out that reduces the chance of catching it by 50%, does that make everything safe again? Remember 50,000 deaths from flu during flu season, if the numbers were cut in 1/2 and we only had 65000 deaths this year would you all be happy to get on with life?
I mean, if you dont think permanent heart and lung damage is a risky outcome, then i suppose not.

And of course, there is a high likelihood you pass the virus to somebody else.

And we don't know the long term consequences....like chicken pox leads to shingles
 
Again, what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?
It a flight crashes, that crash does not spread exponentially to a bunch of other people....or does it?
 
Neglecting to mention the longer-term outcomes observed in some COVID survivors is a pretty big omission.

Dead-or-alive is not the only relevant metric.
But long term issues are only total speculation at this point. Certainly there is a much stronger case of long term risk from concussions and CTE.
The difference here seems to be that COVID can be brought home, so players options appear largely to be doing it either to protect their family and/or to avoid having to isolate from their family.
It’s kind of silly to ignore the brain injury risk from football which is 100 times greater, then quit playing because of the COVID risk.
 
I mean, if you dont think permanent heart and lung damage is a risky outcome, then i suppose not.

And of course, there is a high likelihood you pass the virus to somebody else.

And we don't know the long term consequences....like chicken pox leads to shingles
Permanent damage? Source?
 
It a flight crashes, that crash does not spread exponentially to a bunch of other people....or does it?
There will still be the same number of players. Players opting out does not change the risk of spreading covid, just the people who are at risk.
 
Spot on.

So what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?

No, not a trick question.

Put another way...

(i) Did you ever take a commercial airline flight any time between 2004 and 2019?

If so, what level of risk did you assign to that activity and how worried were you about perishing in a plane crash?

(ii) Assuming you did fly commercially in that 15-year time frame --- how do you assess the relative risk of going out and living a normal life in 2020 given the "threat" of the C-virus?

Do you believe living a normal life in 2020 puts you at greater risk of perishing from the C-virus than boarding a commercial airline flight in the prior 15-years?

Rastan, I don't know whether you believe you have a trick of definitional or statistical gymnastics up your sleeve. I am hoping the "trick" is rather to talk about the amount of effort we put into aviation safety!

But here are the facts.

In terms of a commercial airlline flight, in the United States, whole years routinely go by between fatalities in regularly scheduled commercial aviation. Deaths in aviation writ large, i.e., including general aviation, typically are well under 1,000. Here's 2018, the most recent count, where aviation, including the local cropduster or tourist flight, totaled 393 deaths. 1 death was in commercial airline flight. You probably specifically remember this death -- a woman was sucked partially out of a window in mid-air on a SWA flight.

https://ntsb.gov/investigations/dat...a_Stats/US-Transportation-Fatalities-2018.pdf

At present, in the United States, we are at 150,000+ COVID-19 deaths from March-July, a 5-month span.

Globally, since you're talking about what a "human being's" risk is, I believe in 2015 or 2016 we had a fatality-free global airline safety record, but I'm quoting from memory. Suffice it to say, despite significant issues that it's always wrong to sleep on, you're nowhere near even the U.S. total of deaths from COVID-19. (There were huge increases in the global fatality rate in 2018, taking the global toll into the hundreds, due to the Indonesian and I think Kenyan crashes of Boeing 737 Max planes.)

We're at 600,000+ COVID deaths globally.

So yeah, good point if you mean "look at the resources we have always poured into commercial aviation to avoid deaths even in single digits."

If you're trying to do some statistical backflip to get to the conclusion that it's safer to disregard COVID than get on an airplane, let me go make some popcorn :D
 
Interested in the specifics.

How many "subjects" are we talking about here?

Are you sure there are detailed and comprehensive medical histories available for each and every "subject" prior to their C-virus diagnosis? And all of said charts are clear & clean?

All fair questions--I included the link to the full JAMA-Cardiology paper in my post, I'd be happy to hear your analysis of it.

Another question, how many people do you know who have actually had the virus? If any, what has their experience been?

Me personally? Just five who I know well enough to have been kept informed on the progress of their illness. I'm no medical journal. :) But since you asked:

Two, both college students, had flu-like symptoms and appear to be doing fine. One, in his '50s, was incapacitated for a month but is doing somewhat better now, time will tell. One, in her 40s, is a "long hauler" who has been laid out for 3 1/2 months and likely has permanent lung damage. And one, a beloved family member in her '70s, is dead.
 
How many opt out threads do we have?
 
No, not a trick question.

Put another way...

(i) Did you ever take a commercial airline flight any time between 2004 and 2019?

If so, what level of risk did you assign to that activity and how worried were you about perishing in a plane crash?

(ii) Assuming you did fly commercially in that 15-year time frame --- how do you assess the relative risk of going out and living a normal life in 2020 given the "threat" of the C-virus?

Do you believe living a normal life in 2020 puts you at greater risk of perishing from the C-virus than boarding a commercial airline flight in the prior 15-years?

Ask the question of a 70 year old?
Spot on.

So what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?

What is more likely to kill the 17% of our population that is over 65?
 
Ask the question of a 70 year old?


What is more likely to kill the 17% of our population that is over 65?
It isn't likely to kill 17% of our population over 65.
65 year olds aren't playing football.
I agree it is a bad analogy.
If you are 70 or older you are at serious risk. Of course you are also at serious risk from the flu, from a cold, from lots of stuff.
A man between the ages of 75 and 84 has a 6% chance of dying every year, pre covid.
A man over 84 has a 17% chance of dying every year, pre covid.
 
Honestly curious to see your math here. Even with lock-downs, social distancing etc, about 150000 in the US died from COVID-19 in about 4 months (i.e., ~1 out of 2000). There has been 1 death on a commercial flight in the US since 2009, out of 200M passengers per year. I know which seems safer to me.

They call it a "global pandemic" for a reason...

...covid is not limited to the United States, nor is air travel.

As such, to get a true picture, we must consider the entire data set.

In 2017 The Guardian estimated on a global basis 6,000,000 human beings flew commercially on a daily basis = translates to 2,190,000,000 commercial flights annually*.

From 2006 through 2019 there were 7,257 casualties due to air crashes = 518 per year on average.

2,190,000,000/518 = 4,224,886

So, over the 14-year period from 2006-2019 odds were 1:4,224,886 for perishing in a commercial air crash.

*NOTE: The 6M is from 2017 and using it for the entire 14-year window probably overstates the total number of flights taken...which by association would understate the odds of perishing in an air crash...better to be conservative.

How about you take a shot at calculating the odds of a human being dying from covid?

I have a golf game to get to!

upload_2020-7-31_10-58-9.png

upload_2020-7-31_10-59-42.png
 
Interested in the specifics.

How many "subjects" are we talking about here?

Are you sure there are detailed and comprehensive medical histories available for each and every "subject" prior to their C-virus diagnosis? And all of said charts are clear & clean?

Another question, how many people do you know who have actually had the virus? If any, what has their experience been?

Some of your questions will be answered in the academic article that @patchick mentioned in the very post you are replying to. And since this isn't some kind of pre-print but actually published it also went through peer review which gives it more legitimacy than most other non-academic articles on the internet.

Go and read it instead of lazily asking others to spoon-feed you everything.
 
They call it a "global pandemic" for a reason...

...covid is not limited to the United States, nor is air travel.

Just curious. Are you also looking at the overall, average weather in your State or the entire US when you are going out in whatever place you live in or are you looking at the context that is most relevant for you (i.e. local weather) ?
 
It isn't likely to kill 17% of our population over 65.
65 year olds aren't playing football.
I agree it is a bad analogy.
If you are 70 or older you are at serious risk. Of course you are also at serious risk from the flu, from a cold, from lots of stuff.
A man between the ages of 75 and 84 has a 6% chance of dying every year, pre covid.
A man over 84 has a 17% chance of dying every year, pre covid.

What are the odds of man between ages 39 and 53 dying in a motorcycle accident?
 
Just curious. Are you also looking at the overall, average weather in your State or the entire US when you are going out in whatever place you live in or are you looking at the context that is most relevant for you (i.e. local weather) ?

Yes, very cognizant of weather.

If there is lightning, I go inside.

If it is hot & sunny on the golf course I apply sunscreen liberally and wear a hat with a wide brim.

When it's really hot I never go fishing until after 6pm, the bass never bite during the day when it's really hot.

Gotta pay attention to the weather.
 
Go and read it instead of lazily asking others to spoon-feed you everything.

LOL.

You familiar with the long-standing legal adage...never ask a question you don't already know the answer to?
 
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