GOAT QB discussions must include Johnny U.

Doctor DDS said:

Weird - I swear I remember there being all sorts of talk about how Brady winning his 4th, 5th and 6th Super Bowl titles elevated him and that actually winning games was important. Did not realize those wins were meaningless. Bacon - thank you for enlightening me and bringing up to speed on what is important. If wins don't matter, what does? Passing yards? TD passes? QB rating? And I never said that wins were ALL that mattered but I guess it is easy to distort what I said to try and make your point. Montana had a much better win loss record in both regular and post seasons than Big Ben or Favre so no idea what that statement was about. I'd never draft Brady first in fantasy football but would absolutely draft him first in actual football.

Click to expand...

How you play the position > achievements.

Rings, MVPs - even are the result of team success. How a quarterback played the position matters more than how many rings he has.

Is Lynn Swann a top 10 or even 20 WR? Would anyone bring him up when talking about GOAT WR?

While we're here, sacks are a QB stat Doctor.

farn said:

Who do you want in the fourth quarter of the SB ? I want 2014 Brady. I want 1989 Montana. I want 2016 Brady.

Click to expand...

Brady. Grogan. Flutie. Plunkett.

NOT

Bledsoe, Young, Manning elder

Not even Manning younger.

Am I supposed to assume that holding will be allowed for my team only, or that my most reliable receiver will drop the game-clinching pass?

robertweathers said:

Too many fans are stat geeks and don't appreciate QBs who lead, win and manage games.

Click to expand...

You rang?

sb1 said:

I believe Brady is GOAT but there will never be consensus on this and debates will always happen. Different eras of the game.

Click to expand...

There is a pretty good consensus that Brady is the GOAT. There are always some people out there who disagree but by and large people agree on Brady.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion(s). That's actually where stats come in as being useful. Take feelings and opinions out and you see a different picture.
There's a considerable gap between Elway and these QB's if you're objective. Brady, Montana, Manning, Brees, Young, Staubach, Marino, Rodgers, Wilson, Ben and there's about 10 others you could argue. Guys like Favre, Unitas, Romo, Warner, Rivers, Fouts etc ...

Matt Ryan will have played the position better by the time he retires. Wilson and Mahomes as well.

Elway is a borderline top 15 -20 QB.

Click to expand...

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you didn't answer my question which was who was the best WR/RB Elway played with before 1995? You discount the talent and organization around a player as having an effect on numbers. If Elway played in New Orleans under Sean Peyton with all their talent, they would have been the Patriots of the NFC instead of one measly Super Bowl appearance in tons of wasted opportunities. How did Brees do in his first four years before he was rescued from a similar situation? In fact San Diego did better with Rivers.

Elways sacks & sack %


Brees

p8ryts said:

Unfortunately I'm old enough to have seen them all including Otto Graham. Namath does not belong anywhere near this list. He could be great when he felt like it. Bradshaw never seems to get the respect he deserves. Quarterbacked one of the greatest rosters in history, threw a great ball. Can't make up my mind about Elway. In his early years, he was like Drew slinging the ball keeping the Broncos in games and getting them to Super Bowls they shouldn't have made. Never a big Marino fan and I think you identified his biggest problem. Stabler was very good also, still not sure he belongs in this list. The rest of them were all really good. My top five. Brady, Unitas, Graham, Montana, Manning. Next five, Elway, Staubach, Starr, Bradshaw, Stabler. Outside looking in, Marino, Aikman, Young. Namath nowhere. There are others from the old days that might be contenders, Bob Waterfield, Norm Van Brocklin. It's a never ending fascinating discussion that someday will include some of today's QB's.

Click to expand...

A while back I was defending Bradshaw in a thread here. I remember the "experts" had him as a dumb QB.

I liked Namath and was happy that the Jete beat the Colts in SB3, but that doesn't mean he belongs in the HOF. He doesn't.

I don't care much for any of the Manning clan and I can't completely separate that from my ranking of PEDton, the sexual predator. His ridiculous number of one and done playoffs doesn't help him either.

I think Stabler had a reputation for being clutch.

Marino loses a lot because he didn't win it all, but damn was he quick. Near the end when the Pats defense would come in on Marino untouched he could still get off accurate passes, and not just dump-offs.

It's funny how I remember Montana but not Young so much, even though Young was more recent. He has a lot of backers.

I always wondered how good Otto Graham was. He had a great record but I don't remember him.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

Family said:

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you didn't answer my question which was who was the best WR/RB Elway played with before 1995? You discount the talent and organization around a player as having an effect on numbers. If Elway played in New Orleans under Sean Peyton with all their talent, they would have been the Patriots of the NFC instead of one measly Super Bowl appearance in tons of wasted opportunities. How did Brees do in his first four years before he was rescued from a similar situation? In fact San Diego did better with Rivers.

Click to expand...

Shannon Sharpe. Was in GOAT convo when he retired. Weapons come in different forms, shapes-sizes ....
In terms of questions answered you haven't answered any of mine or very few though.

And had a pretty good defense early on. No his supporting cast wasn't great but he never made anyone famous or better. He had a pretty good team around him with good coaching. Elway didn't face major obstacles in his division either.

Also I stats aren't everything but he doesn't look good in most when talking about a top ten list.

I think it's clear where we stand on the subject anyway.

Actual Pats Fan said:

You rang?

Click to expand...

Combined 113-88 reg season career record.

Kdo5 said:

There is a pretty good consensus that Brady is the GOAT. There are always some people out there who disagree but by and large people agree on Brady.

Click to expand...

Yep. The 28-3 comeback sealed the deal for him as the consensus goat. The only argument I hear now is how other QBs would have fared if they had Bill. That is all that is left really. Hypotheticals.

Family said:

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you didn't answer my question which was who was the best WR/RB Elway played with before 1995? You discount the talent and organization around a player as having an effect on numbers. If Elway played in New Orleans under Sean Peyton with all their talent, they would have been the Patriots of the NFC instead of one measly Super Bowl appearance in tons of wasted opportunities. How did Brees do in his first four years before he was rescued from a similar situation? In fact San Diego did better with Rivers.

Click to expand...

Brees>>>>>Elway

Actual Pats Fan said:

Brees>>>>>Elway

Click to expand...

Not if you wanted to win.

No stats support Elway.

Mediocre his first 10 years in the league. He was awful to mediocre in more than half of the playoffs and SB he played in.

0 All-Pro Selections

LOL 3/8 TD/INT but let's pretend he was clutch and they won bc of him.



Also ... LOL at narratives. Elway somehow gets a rep as "clutch" but Manning is a "choker"?

Again Elway is a very good QB but I've yet to see or hear any arguments in favor of him for all-time - top 10 list besides people opinions. Those are great but if that's all you have, you have very little with all due respect.

I get it, stats aren't everything but none support him as a great or all-time great QB. None. Mixed bag? Ok, there's something there but none support him.

Elway’s biggest problem was that his legend is built off dragging teams that had no business being there to Super Bowls and then finally getting to ride off into the sunset. However that narrative discounts the AFC being hot garbage at the time and there’s a reason he barely made it out of there only to get the holy hell kicked out of him. Then for his sunset run it was really the Davis show with Elway being a role player. Even his one MVP was infamously because Montana and Rice split each other’s vote. Stats don’t help him either

lancerman said:

Elway’s biggest problem was that his legend is built off dragging teams that had no business being there to Super Bowls and then finally getting to ride off into the sunset. However that narrative discounts the AFC being hot garbage at the time and there’s a reason he barely made it out of there only to get the holy hell kicked out of him. Then for his sunset run it was really the Davis show with Elway being a role player. Even his one MVP was infamously because Montana and Rice split each other’s vote. Stats don’t help him either

Click to expand...

Yep...Horse Mouth has basically Marty Shottenheimer & Gary Anderson to thank for his rep...and the Packers had no business whatsoever losing to the Donkeys in SB 32 either...

farn said:

Who do you want in the fourth quarter of the SB ? I want 2014 Brady. I want 1989 Montana. I want 2016 Brady.

Click to expand...

2018 Brady wasn't bad. Even though John Madden would disagree, neither was 2001 Tom Brady.

amfootball said:

Bradshaw?

Click to expand...

Terry Bradshaw is a very interesting QB statistically. He is 3rd all-time in post-season wins tied with Peyton Manning and John Elway.

He won 4 Super Bowls, tied with Joe Montana and ahead of everybody else except TFB.

Bradshaw could throw TDs. He twice led the league in TD/pass attempt and is 24th all-time even with the liberal defensive rules of the 1970s-early 1980s. That is saying a lot.

Bradshaw was in the top ten in yards/pass attempt seven out his ten years.

He's not in the top 50 all time in completion percentage at just 51.9%. That gets you cut today. Back then, the defensive backs could hold receivers at the line of scrimmage and basically mug them all over the field. So it's a tough comparison.

Bradshaw's best passing season was 1979 when he threw for 3700 yards - a poor season by today's standards, and he was throwing to HOF receivers with a great backfield to keep the front 7 honest.

There's a Top 10 case to be made for Montana.

My Top Ten All-Time Quarterbacks (not just passers)

1. Tom Brady
2. Joe Montana
3. Dan Marino
4. Johnny Unitas
5. Peyton Manning
6. Otto Graham
7. Randall Cunningham
8. John Elway
9. Roger Staubach
10. Brett Favre

I always find it difficult to compare guys like Otto Graham or Jonny Unitas to today's QB's it seems as though any list has to be qualified, the game in the 50's is nothing like the game of today. The skill level of players is completely different. The rules are completely different.

Remember Art Donovan used to talk about the lack of offseason training so much so he would come into camp 25 pounds overweight from all the drinking and overeating.. and would have to lose it all on the 2 a day practices..

Not to take anything away from Unitas or Graham, but those guys are impossible to compare to what takes place today.. they are all great, but great at different times.

Actual Pats Fan said:

Brees>>>>>Elway

Click to expand...

In a dome, yeah. Otherwise..

UptownPatsFan said:

In a dome, yeah. Otherwise..

Click to expand...

I'd take Brees is any conditions. On Mars in a windstorm. He's too underrated here while Elway rides on myth.

I'm curious after everything on Elway what it would take for someone to admit they're wrong and he's super overrated?