GOAT QB discussions must include Johnny U.

Doctor DDS · Jul 5, 2020

Wins and losses for a QB are similar to a pitcher in baseball. On an individual game basis they may not be particularly accurate but when they are aggregated over a career they absolutely help tell a story and are reflective of how good someone is. They are not as clean as in individual sports like tennis or golf but in the context of team sports they are huge. Bill Russell is known as they greatest winner in team sports for a reason. He did not do it all himself. Jordan is the GOAT because he won so many titles. No one ever said that a QB solely wins or loses a game on his own or that Wins and Losses are the only stat that matters but over time they are the reason games are played and should carry every bit as much weight as other counting stats do. It's not an accident that Brady has such a good record in both the regular and post season. The fact that Eli is 117-117 for his career is absolutely reflective of his mediocre ability and the only reason he will even be considered for the HOF is his 2 Super WINS.

BTTA · Jul 5, 2020

The QB's that I admire the most are the ones that changed the game by adding some aspect to offensive strategy. Unitas and the 2 minute drill is a good example. Yes, it is impressive to run up dramatic stats and win a lot of games, and that form of greatness should be recognized. I enjoy "great leaps forward" moreso.

p8ryts · Jul 5, 2020

1960Pats said:
I think that Wilson already belongs in the top ten. He's accomplished more in half of a career than some on the popular lists have in all of their's.

A few years ago, before Brady ended the debate for good, I saw 4 top 10 lists of the most clutch QB's of all-time.

Brady, Elway, Marino, Montana, Starr & Unitas made all four lists.
Graham, Staubach, Stabler & Young made three of the lists.
Aikman, Bradshaw, Namath & Manning made one list each.

I was lucky enough to have seen all of them except Graham but his record was outstanding.

I believe that Unitas suffers from a milder case of what hurts the GOAT NBA player, too many people doing the judging never saw him play.

I really marveled at how quick Marino got rid of the ball and have to lay some of the blame for his lack of a ring on coaching. The problem was the same for him as it is for many great QB's not named Brady. They think they can put the ball anywhere at any time and can come up with a bad TO.

Stabler would be a good addition to any top ten.

I'm not a big fan of Elway's but he did get a couple of rings. I just wouldn't put him that high on the list.

Unfortunately I'm old enough to have seen them all including Otto Graham. Namath does not belong anywhere near this list. He could be great when he felt like it. Bradshaw never seems to get the respect he deserves. Quarterbacked one of the greatest rosters in history, threw a great ball. Can't make up my mind about Elway. In his early years, he was like Drew slinging the ball keeping the Broncos in games and getting them to Super Bowls they shouldn't have made. Never a big Marino fan and I think you identified his biggest problem. Stabler was very good also, still not sure he belongs in this list. The rest of them were all really good. My top five. Brady, Unitas, Graham, Montana, Manning. Next five, Elway, Staubach, Starr, Bradshaw, Stabler. Outside looking in, Marino, Aikman, Young. Namath nowhere. There are others from the old days that might be contenders, Bob Waterfield, Norm Van Brocklin. It's a never ending fascinating discussion that someday will include some of today's QB's.

p8ryts · Jul 5, 2020

1960Pats said:
If I said that Favre could have cost the Pats a 19-0 season with his INT in the NFC game, would that be acceptable?

All I know is, at the time, I wasn't too thrilled with Favre's pick. I didn't want to see NY again after the game they gave the Pats at the end of the season.

You are right. Favre did it again with Minnesota a couple years later in New Orleans. Actually it was worse. It was like Shanahan in Atlanta. All they had to do was kick the field goal and win. He did the old, roll right, nobody open, lets throw it back across the body into coverage. Game over. Favre was talented but not smart.

p8ryts · Jul 5, 2020

Tony2046 said:
Are you amused by flat earther discussions too?

No, just sad.

Family · Jul 5, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
I think he's a very good QB. Just when comparing and talking about all-time, top 10. I think he's very overrated and doesn't belong in the discussions.

1)When was he ever the best QB in the league? Name me Elways prime years that make you go "Wow"!

2)He actually had pretty good teams as a whole. As you mentioned the 3 amigos and a defense in the late 80's that was legit.

He was very average and mediocre at times his first 10 years if we're being honest. Had everything in place later.

Also ...

Again this is about the best of the best ... All-time great.

Elway didn't get better during the playoffs. He was the same for the most part - 27/21 TD/INT - 54% - < 80 QB rating. And was 3/6 TD/INT in the 2 SB wins.

Stats tell only part of the story. His teams didn't even belong in any Super Bowls until the final two. The reason they were named Three Amigos is because none of them was good enough to even mention as #1 WR. Only Vance Johnson had 1000 yards once. Ricky Nattiel had less than 2000 yards in his entire career. Combined the group had the same number of receiving yards career wise as Jason Witten.

Elway consistently led an average team as far as it could go better than only a handful of QBs. His career comebacks and game winning drive numbers are up there among the best. It was a miracle that his team was able to make five Super Bowls and six AFC championship games. Yes he was a gunslinger, but nobody made these up for his team better than Elway, and they wouldn't have gone anywhere if he didn't play the game like that. Finally, Reeves wasn't exactly a great mentor for him. They were out coached every meaningful game he played.

p8ryts · Jul 5, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
cigs on sidelines & beer at halftime.

Now you are talking about my favorite QB--Bobby Layne Lions, he is also the one who cursed the Lions to 50 years of not winning.

sb1 · Jul 5, 2020

Doctor DDS said:
Wins and losses for a QB are similar to a pitcher in baseball.

Not really. Baseball is a sport of individual matchups disguised as a team sport. Football is a pure team sport. The pitchers has more control over the outcome of a baseball game than the QB has over his football game. In theory a pitcher could strike out every batter he faces and his team doesn't have to do anything to keep the other team off the scoreboard. There's no equivalent of that in football.

A great pitcher more often than not will be great on any given day regardless of the quality of his team around him. A great QB cannot possibly be great if the rest of his team sucks, but an ordinary QB certainly can be great if the team around him is great. That's why W-L can't be a QB stat.

Case in point:
Broncos vs. Chiefs - Box Score - November 13, 2011 - ESPN

Tebow: 2-8 passing and a "win". LOL

p8ryts · Jul 5, 2020

Family said:
Stats tell only part of the story. His teams didn't even belong in any Super Bowls until the final two. The reason they were named Three Amigos is because none of them was good enough to even mention as #1 WR. Only Vance Johnson had 1000 yards once. Ricky Nattiel had less than 2000 yards in his entire career. Combined the group had the same number of receiving yards career wise as Jason Witten.

Elway consistently led an average team as far as it could go better than only a handful of QBs. His career comebacks and game winning drive numbers are up there among the best. It was a miracle that his team was able to make five Super Bowls and six AFC championship games. Yes he was a gunslinger, but nobody made these up for his team better than Elway, and they wouldn't have gone anywhere if he didn't play the game like that. Finally, Reeves wasn't exactly a great mentor for him. They were out coached every meaningful game he played.

Rod Smith was one of the best receivers I have seen. Never got the acclaim he deserved because of Elway, Sharpe and the HOF running back I can't remember.

SHOWTIME15 · Jul 5, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
Elways legs were definitely a big + over his career and helped him big time. I don't see how his winning % suggest they helped him or anything but they were a big asset. After that we disagree.

But even today, playing in Denver is challenging bc of the location though? Credit Elway but he doesn't change the air there or the fact some players struggle in Denver. That's Denver. Also team wins isn't a QB stat. We gotta stop citing wins like its a real stat.

I'm really not trying to **** on Elway. I loved watching him play. I just think he's very good. Compared to peers, comparing stats and it's a different picture imo.

Anything Denver-related has to be taken with a grain of salt. I crunched some numbers a while ago, and found that they have over the span of its history a .72 winning percentage at home and a .39 percentage on the road. That tells me that they succeed mainly because of the altitude.

Family · Jul 5, 2020

TommyBrady12 said:
Anything Denver-related has to be taken with a grain of salt. I crunched some numbers a while ago, and found that they have over the span of its history a .72 winning percentage at home and a .39 percentage on the road. That tells me that they succeed mainly because of the altitude.

Yet Elway was 65% over a career.

SHOWTIME15 · Jul 5, 2020

Family said:
Yet Elway was 65% over a career.

Most of it due to being at home, I'm sure...

Uptown · Jul 5, 2020

p8ryts said:
Rod Smith was one of the best receivers I have seen. Never got the acclaim he deserved because of Elway, Sharpe and the HOF running back I can't remember.

Yep; and he went undrafted.

captain stone · Jul 5, 2020

p8ryts said:
You are right. Favre did it again with Minnesota a couple years later in New Orleans. Actually it was worse. It was like Shanahan in Atlanta. All they had to do was kick the field goal and win. He did the old, roll right, nobody open, lets throw it back across the body into coverage. Game over. Favre was talented but not smart.

Yep...Favre is regarded now what Bradshaw would've been regarded as if Bradshaw wasn't surrounded by HOF talent on all sides; and for that reason neither of them will never, Ever belong on any Top Ten list of mine...or Top Twenty...

BaconGrundleCandy · Jul 5, 2020

Doctor DDS said:
Wins and losses for a QB are similar to a pitcher in baseball. On an individual game basis they may not be particularly accurate but when they are aggregated over a career they absolutely help tell a story and are reflective of how good someone is. They are not as clean as in individual sports like tennis or golf but in the context of team sports they are huge. Bill Russell is known as they greatest winner in team sports for a reason. He did not do it all himself. Jordan is the GOAT because he won so many titles. No one ever said that a QB solely wins or loses a game on his own or that Wins and Losses are the only stat that matters but over time they are the reason games are played and should carry every bit as much weight as other counting stats do. It's not an accident that Brady has such a good record in both the regular and post season. The fact that Eli is 117-117 for his career is absolutely reflective of his mediocre ability and the only reason he will even be considered for the HOF is his 2 Super WINS.

If you want to continue to sit at the kids table during serious discussions that's fine. It's 2020, if you don't know how to evaluate the QB position that's on you.

Funny you bring up pitchers considering no serious baseball mind considers using wins/loses more than a mediocre way of looking at the position.

There are ways to evaluate the position. Wins and loses wouldn't be in my top ten. It just screams casual.

Are Elway & Ben better than Montana?

Was Favre the GOAT when he retired?

Are all wins and loses equal? Do they count the same when a QB is getting carried by the surrounding parts?

It's obvious people use this thinking it helps Brady. Completely ignorant of the defense & ST (sometimes #1 defense/ST or top tier) that went into winning games we had no business winning.

Sorry but if you've ever actually talked to players and coaches they'd be frustrated as well and probably wouldn't even engage.

BaconGrundleCandy · Jul 5, 2020

Family said:
Stats tell only part of the story. His teams didn't even belong in any Super Bowls until the final two. The reason they were named Three Amigos is because none of them was good enough to even mention as #1 WR. Only Vance Johnson had 1000 yards once. Ricky Nattiel had less than 2000 yards in his entire career. Combined the group had the same number of receiving yards career wise as Jason Witten.

Elway consistently led an average team as far as it could go better than only a handful of QBs. His career comebacks and game winning drive numbers are up there among the best. It was a miracle that his team was able to make five Super Bowls and six AFC championship games. Yes he was a gunslinger, but nobody made these up for his team better than Elway, and they wouldn't have gone anywhere if he didn't play the game like that. Finally, Reeves wasn't exactly a great mentor for him. They were out coached every meaningful game he played.

Stats aren't the end all, be all but they're very useful. And objective when used right.

I also noticed you haven't answered one of my questions.

When was Elway the best QB on the field by a decent gap? Wow years or stats? He was very mediocre the first 10 years of his career. One might say lucky to stay a starter after TO the ball over so much.

Again there's a real argument he wasn't top 5 ever during his prime - career.

It's not about whether Elway was a good QB. It's about whether he's top 5-10 in the history of the sport.

Family · Jul 5, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
Stats aren't the end all, be all but they're very useful. And objective when used right.

I also noticed you haven't answered one of my questions.

When was Elway the best QB on the field by a decent gap? Wow years or stats? He was very mediocre the first 10 years of his career. One might say lucky to stay a starter after TO the ball over so much.

Again there's a real argument he wasn't top 5 ever during his prime - career.

It's not about whether Elway was a good QB. It's about whether he's top 5-10 in the history of the sport.

Elway was the second or third best QB of the best era of QBs, IMO over his career. You might not have wow years if you're playing with mediocre receivers/running backs, and the other QBs are Montana, Marino, Kelly, Young etc, playing with far better players.

Without looking, other than the not disputed great weapons after 1994, who is the best WR or RB he ever had before. It's amazing he pulled off the success he had.

I can understand Elway towards the bottom of top 10. But if you are putting people like Rodgers, Bradshaw or Favre ahead of him, IMO that's just wrong.

Doctor DDS · Jul 5, 2020

Weird - I swear I remember there being all sorts of talk about how Brady winning his 4th, 5th and 6th Super Bowl titles elevated him and that actually winning games was important. Did not realize those wins were meaningless. Bacon - thank you for enlightening me and bringing up to speed on what is important. If wins don't matter, what does? Passing yards? TD passes? QB rating? And I never said that wins were ALL that mattered but I guess it is easy to distort what I said to try and make your point. Montana had a much better win loss record in both regular and post seasons than Big Ben or Favre so no idea what that statement was about. I'd never draft Brady first in fantasy football but would absolutely draft him first in actual football.

BaconGrundleCandy · Jul 5, 2020

Family said:
Elway was the second or third best QB of the best era of QBs, IMO over his career. You might not have wow years if you're playing with mediocre receivers/running backs, and the other QBs are Montana, Marino, Kelly, Young etc, playing with far better players.

Without looking, other than the not disputed great weapons after 1994, who is the best WR or RB he ever had before. It's amazing he pulled off the success he had.

I can understand Elway towards the bottom of top 10. But if you are putting people like Rodgers, Bradshaw or Favre ahead of him, IMO that's just wrong.

Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion(s). That's actually where stats come in as being useful. Take feelings and opinions out and you see a different picture.
There's a considerable gap between Elway and these QB's if you're objective. Brady, Montana, Manning, Brees, Young, Staubach, Marino, Rodgers, Wilson, Ben and there's about 10 others you could argue. Guys like Favre, Unitas, Romo, Warner, Rivers, Fouts etc ...

Matt Ryan will have played the position better by the time he retires. Wilson and Mahomes as well.

Elway is a borderline top 15 -20 QB.

Career opponent adjusted AY/A

Career Adjusted any/a ... 58th

Career TD% 112th

Ice_Ice_Brady · Jul 5, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
If you want to continue to sit at the kids table during serious discussions that's fine. It's 2020, if you don't know how to evaluate the QB position that's on you.

Funny you bring up pitchers considering no serious baseball mind considers using wins/loses more than a mediocre way of looking at the position.

There are ways to evaluate the position. Wins and loses wouldn't be in my top ten. It just screams casual.

Are Elway & Ben better than Montana?

Was Favre the GOAT when he retired?

Are all wins and loses equal? Do they count the same when a QB is getting carried by the surrounding parts?

It's obvious people use this thinking it helps Brady. Completely ignorant of the defense & ST (sometimes #1 defense/ST or top tier) that went into winning games we had no business winning.

Sorry but if you've ever actually talked to players and coaches they'd be frustrated as well and probably wouldn't even engage.

PPG and turnover pct should give a pretty fair view of how many games the QB should win with an average defense. It isn’t perfect, but it’s getting closer. Again, though, this would be over an entire career and not subject to the whims of a few games or one season. Need time for supporting casts to ebb and flow.

Read recently that Brady’s Patriots averaged more PPG than any team from 01-19. And that’s often playing in the cold with a team that’s notoriously frugal with skill positions. Factoring in his low turnover %, I imagine that Manning is the only one that’s close statistically during this era. Maybe Brees too.

QB wins might not be the best tool in comparing players and extracting value, but it is still a hallowed statistical record (in the NFL record book) and rightfully so.

GOAT QB discussions must include Johnny U.

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