Kraft case being heard this week.

FreeTedWilliams said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm pretty sure I'm the only one here who has ever monitored a wire tap........

What the police did wrong here was not their warrant or the probably cause to get the warrant, it is the fact that they did not "minimize" their intrusion into the private conversations of innocent people.

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Careful, my friend. I said the exact same thing yesterday (admittedly not as well as you did) and got personally attacked for it.

FreeTedWilliams said:

Before you can even enter the room where the records are being made, you have to be "minimized" by a DA. The DA will read you a specific sets of instructions on when you can and can not record (for instance, if the target is on the phone with his wife, lawyer, doctor, etc.) you have to hang up, not listen and not record. The Police in this case did none of this! They didn't minimize at all! They just pressed "record" and didn't even attempt to minimize. So their is no way this case holds. It is going to get tossed.

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It reminds me of a scene from the movie Casino. The FBI has Sam Rothstein's (Robert de Niro's) phone tapped. But they can only listen for a few seconds to determine if the call is something illegal or something personal. If it is personal, they have to stop listening, since it is a private, protected conversation. So to fool the FBI, de Niro and Joe Pesci's character have their wives talk on the phone about something worthless. Then when the FBI switches off their tap, de Niro and Pesci quickly jump on to discuss their plans.

FreeTedWilliams said:

Its the "fruit from the poisonous tree" doctrine. The Cops should have known better and they are going to lose because they failed to follow basic universal proceedures.

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Yeah, if it gets thrown out, it all gets thrown out. A cop could not, for example, testify that he personally saw Kraft pay a prostitute money because the only reason that cop saw it happen is because of the (hypothetically) illegal warrant.

XLIX said:

What does that mean they “have bigger fish to fry”? They got a warrant, the validity of the warrant is being tested in court, and they’re defending their own warrant. What are they supposed to do? Just let it go anytime a warrant gets challenged?

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Exactly what I meant, the state of Fla has better things to do with their financial resources.. this is at best a penny ante case that has more to do with their notoriety than for justice....

77 Year old man gets a hand job that he paid for, then considerable pearl clutching and hand wringing ensues.. so many self righteous folks become more self righteous.

They could have handled all of this discretely and quietly, instead they chose to make it into a National Enquirer situation.. did anyone expect for Kraft to roll over??

All accused have a right to contest a warrant and court orders.. we do not live in a dictatorship, yet.

FreeTedWilliams said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm pretty sure I'm the only one here who has ever monitored a wire tap........

What the police did wrong here was not their warrant or the probably cause to get the warrant, it is the fact that they did not "minimize" their intrusion into the private conversations of innocent people.

Before you can even enter the room where the records are being made, you have to be "minimized" by a DA. The DA will read you a specific sets of instructions on when you can and can not record (for instance, if the target is on the phone with his wife, lawyer, doctor, etc.) you have to hang up, not listen and not record. The Police in this case did none of this! They didn't minimize at all! They just pressed "record" and didn't even attempt to minimize. So their is no way this case holds. It is going to get tossed.

Its the "fruit from the poisonous tree" doctrine. The Cops should have known better and they are going to lose because they failed to follow basic universal proceedures.

So that is the legal case, and it is not some bit of legal trickery open only to the rich, I would dare to say a kid right out of law school would have gotten this tossed too.

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This is well said and it was argued at yesterday's hearing that way. The hearing wasn't only about Kraft, there were three defense attorneys: one representing Kraft, one representing a person from the Vero Beach cases, and one representing the madame from I think Jupiter.

If you recall, there were 3 municipalities that arrested over 100 johns in Vero Beach, Martin County and Jupiter. The judges for all three of those venues threw out the videos because of minimization issues, so the State had to appeal all of those decisions.

At one point a Judge asked one of the defense attorneys about the validity of the warrant itself, and the attorney said that the warrant was also invalid because there were no minimization instructions in the warrant. They also stated that the cops had already established through their normal investigative procedures that there was no need for the video surveillance since they were able to recover parlor records from the trash and got 4 johns to admit to the solicitation after stops, thus proving a warrant wasn't even needed.

The poor attorney representing the State got owned going up against three other attorneys. One judge told him he was too focused on the 4th amendment and was ignoring the SC cases that added context to these matters.

What does @Give Kraft A Hand think about this?

DarrylS said:

Exactly what I meant, the state of Fla has better things to do with their financial resources.. this is at best a penny ante case that has more to do with their notoriety than for justice....

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Just out of curiosity, what do you think something like this costs? I guarantee you that Kraft is paying more for his lawyers than the state of Florida is for theirs.

DarrylS said:

77 Year old man gets a hand job that he paid for, then considerable pearl clutching and hand wringing ensues.. so many self righteous folks become more self righteous.

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Don't blame me, it wasn't my side of the aisle that wanted Kraft to sell the team. I think prostitution should be legal and heavily monitored.

DarrylS said:

They could have handled all of this discretely and quietly, instead they chose to make it into a National Enquirer situation.. did anyone expect for Kraft to roll over??

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This is hardly the first case of public shaming those caught soliciting a prostitute.

203Pat said:

Someone who should be more careful in the future.

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He broke the law.

Its the same old tune. Money talks and can buy anything. Especially the best Attorneys in the country.

XLIX said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you think something like this costs? I guarantee you that Kraft is paying more for his lawyers than the state of Florida is for theirs.
Don't blame me, it wasn't my side of the aisle that wanted Kraft to sell the team. I think prostitution should be legal and heavily monitored.
This is hardly the first case of public shaming those caught soliciting a prostitute.

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Does it matter who pays the most?? The State of Fla is tying up not only money but resources..

Why waste the resources and efforts on such a trivial matter??.. they should have handled it quietly and it might have gone away, but they choose the "National Enquirer" route and this is what happens an on going crap show that they may lose..

DarrylS said:

Does it matter who pays the most?? The State of Fla is tying up not only money but resources..

Why waste the resources and efforts on such a trivial matter??

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Why do you say it's a trivial matter? They busted a couple dozen guys soliciting a prostitute. Why should they just let it go? The cost to handle this appeal is pennies when you look at what the state spends on the criminal justice system.

DarrylS said:

they should have handled it quietly and it might have gone away, but they choose the "National Enquirer" route and this is what happens an on going crap show that they may lose..

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Bull. Court records are a matter of public record. There was no way this wasn't going to get sensationalized by the national media.

Bleedthrough said:

1984 has been here and it's only getting worse by the day

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The Novel 1984 was not supposed to b an instruction manual.

Patsfanin Philly said:

The Novel 1984 was not supposed to b an instruction manual.

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War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

XLIX said:

Why do you say it's a trivial matter? They busted a couple dozen guys soliciting a prostitute. Why should they just let it go? The cost to handle this appeal is pennies when you look at what the state spends on the criminal justice system.
Bull. Court records are a matter of public record. There was no way this wasn't going to get sensationalized by the national media.

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They released the video, should have handled this case informally.. how would anyone have known there was a video if they did not disclose it?? They could have had justice occur by arraigning Kraft and fining him appropriately.. instead they chose to show the world how "fair" and "just" they are. They are making sure that no more prostitution will occur in Fla...

Fla has turned this brouhaha into a major incident, due to their incompetence.. they caught Kraft and sensationalized it.

DarrylS said:

They released the video, should have handled this case informally..

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whuh huh?? What does that even mean to “handle the case informally”??

DarrylS said:

Thow would anyone have known there was a video if they did not disclose it??

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Why shouldn’t they disclose the evidence they had? If anything, you’re kinda *obligated* to disclose the evidence you have when you prosecute someone. You can’t exactly say “we caught these men soliciting prostitution. We won’t disclose the evidence so you will just have to trust us.”

DarrylS said:

They could have had justice occur by arraigning Kraft and fining him appropriately..

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If I am not mistaken, that option was on the table. Kraft is the one who chose to spend millions of dollars to weasel out of the community service he would have had to serve.

DarrylS said:

TFla has turned this brouhaha into a major incident, due to their incompetence.. they caught Kraft and sensationalized it.

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The media sensationalized it once that list contained a famous person’s name. Newsflash: You’re not allowed to prosecute people in secret. Wtf are they supposed to have done??

XLIX said:

Why do you say it's a trivial matter? They busted a couple dozen guys soliciting a prostitute. Why should they just let it go? The cost to handle this appeal is pennies when you look at what the state spends on the criminal justice system.
Bull. Court records are a matter of public record. There was no way this wasn't going to get sensationalized by the national media.

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The fact is, it’s an extremely minor crime similar to speeding or running a stop sign

That’s why it’s a misdemeanor and only punishable by a small fine

XLIX said:

whuh huh?? What does that even mean to “handle the case informally”??

Why shouldn’t they disclose the evidence they had? If anything, you’re kinda *obligated* to disclose the evidence you have when you prosecute someone. You can’t exactly say “we caught these men soliciting prostitution. We won’t disclose the evidence so you will just have to trust us.”
If I am not mistaken, that option was on the table. Kraft is the one who chose to spend millions of dollars to weasel out of the community service he would have had to serve.
The media sensationalized it once that list contained a famous person’s name. Newsflash: You’re not allowed to prosecute people in secret. Wtf are they supposed to have done??

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It’s going to get tossed out of court. Prosecutors should have dropped the charges long ago

PatriotsReign said:

The fact is, it’s an extremely minor crime similar to speeding or running a stop sign

That’s why it’s a misdemeanor and only punishable by a small fine

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I agree. And yet Kraft is spending millions to get out of that small fine/community service.

XLIX said:

whuh huh?? What does that even mean to “handle the case informally”??

Why shouldn’t they disclose the evidence they had? If anything, you’re kinda *obligated* to disclose the evidence you have when you prosecute someone. You can’t exactly say “we caught these men soliciting prostitution. We won’t disclose the evidence so you will just have to trust us.”
If I am not mistaken, that option was on the table. Kraft is the one who chose to spend millions of dollars to weasel out of the community service he would have had to serve.
The media sensationalized it once that list contained a famous person’s name. Newsflash: You’re not allowed to prosecute people in secret. Wtf are they supposed to have done??

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Did Robert cut you off in traffic the other day or something?

203Pat said:

Did Robert cut you off in traffic the other day or something?

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Nope, but he did pay money for sex, which is illegal where he did it. The rest is just trying to get off on a technicality.

XLIX said:

Nope, but he did pay money for sex, which is illegal where he did it. The rest is just trying to get off on a technicality.

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Oh no! he basically got caught smoking a joint.

203Pat said:

Oh no! he basically got caught smoking a joint.

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That's right. And yet, for some reason known but to him and God, he is spending millions of dollars to fight it.