Setting Stidham up for Success

sb1 · Jun 19, 2020

Ras-IR Dowling said:
Bad choice of words. My fault.

Would you say if you had TB on one side and BB on the other, you would lean towards BB as far as the reason for the success?

Yeah I would only because of track record. Brady doesn’t have one yet without Bill. Brady was drafted with Bill as coach, with a less than glowing scouting report that called him a system QB. I question whether other teams with lesser coaches would have given Brady the shot that he got here. Their loss our gain.

Ras-IR Dowling · Jun 19, 2020

sb1 said:
Yeah I would only because of track record. Brady doesn’t have one yet without Bill. Brady was drafted with Bill as coach, with a less than glowing scouting report that called him a system QB. I question whether other teams with lesser coaches would have given Brady the shot that he got here. Their loss our gain.

Fair enough. That makes sense that the people you get the most pushback from are those that tend to give TB the brunt of the accolades for our sustained success.

sb1 · Jun 19, 2020

Ras-IR Dowling said:
Fair enough. That makes sense that the people you get the most pushback from are those that tend to give TB the brunt of the accolades for our sustained success.

Probably. I am very pro Belichick for sure I think it’s a bit silly to say Bill is not a good coach and he’ll fall flat on his face without Brady and offering up his W-L track record from almost 3 decades ago as “evidence“ of this. That’s as weak an argument as it gets. Sour grapes imo.

lancerman · Jun 19, 2020

Ras-IR Dowling said:
It’s funny how the two people in a debate right now are 2 that are either the most anti TB or anti BB on this board. Where as the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Having not just one GOAT but 2 is why the patriots have sustained this dynasty in a league where parity is king.

I’m not anti Bill. I’m saying the idea that the team is automatic because Bill is still here is ridiculous. The success of the team was a marriage between Belichick and Brady. You removed part of the equation. The idea that it was all Bill and he’s guaranteed to turn anything into a success is crazy talk.

Let’s start with sb1 needed to reduce his sample size to 16% of what is available. Let’s then pivot to the fact that Cassell was better in KC in 2010 and was a pro bowler and led them to the playoffs with Todd Haley as the coach and he improved the team record from 2-14 in 08, to 4-12 in 09, to 10-6 in 10. Then let’s talk about his other example is Jimmy
G who was just in a SB with another team and that only accounts for 2 wins (one vs a mediocre Cardinals team and one vs a decent Miami team) and the other part of that included going 1-1 with Brisett and he got shut out in a game against a team Brady later dropped 41 on.

So this entire argument is to ignore 84% of a man’s career without a player and then ignore a whole bunch of relevant context to prop that up.

Both Belichick and Brady have questions to answer without the other.

lancerman · Jun 19, 2020

Wozzy said:
Yeah, kind of my point.

If Marino, Tarkenton and others have never won a championship then the theory that magical amazing franchise caliber QB's is why you win rings is bunk.

Amazing teams win rings, you need good QB play... but Nick Foles and Joe Flacco provided that enough to win.

Tom played with great O-Lines, defenses and had good weapons for most of his twenty year career.

It’s usually a marriage between a coach and QB. Lombardi only won with star. Brown won 7 of 8 titles with Otto. Landry only won with Staubach. Walsh only won with Montana. Johnson only won with Aikman. It took Reid getting Mahomes to get over the hump.

It’s both and it’s foolish to predict success without high quality at either end

sb1 · Jun 19, 2020

lancerman said:
I’m not anti Bill. I’m saying the idea that the team is automatic because Bill is still here is ridiculous. The success of the team was a marriage between Belichick and Brady. You removed part of the equation. The idea that it was all Bill and he’s guaranteed to turn anything into a success is crazy talk.

Let’s start with sb1 needed to reduce his sample size to 16% of what is available. Let’s then pivot to the fact that Cassell was better in KC in 2010 and was a pro bowler and led them to the playoffs with Todd Haley as the coach and he improved the team record from 2-14 in 08, to 4-12 in 09, to 10-6 in 10. Then let’s talk about his other example is Jimmy
G who was just in a SB with another team and that only accounts for 2 wins (one vs a mediocre Cardinals team and one vs a decent Miami team) and the other part of that included going 1-1 with Brisett and he got shut out in a game against a team Brady later dropped 41 on.

So this entire argument is to ignore 84% of a man’s career without a player and then ignore a whole bunch of relevant context to prop that up.

Both Belichick and Brady have questions to answer without the other.

If the 16 % is this century and the 84% is 2+ decades ago then I’ll go with the 16% as way more relevant.

lancerman · Jun 19, 2020

sb1 said:
If the 16 % is this century and the 84% is 2+ decades ago then I’ll go with the 16% as way more relevant.

The 16% is coming off a season we’re they went 16-0 and during a season where they went to a SB with Brady. It also features a QB who led a Todd led team to the playoffs and a QB who just went to the most recent SB.

It also features one of 3 seasons we didn’t make the playoffs with him and one of the few shutouts he endured

luuked · Jun 19, 2020

Kasmir said:
It's possible that Brady would never had gotten a shot without Belichick. He couldn't beat out Brian Griese or Drew Henson at Michigan, and despite his being a winner he barely got drafted. Hell, even on the Patriots in 2000 he couldn't beat out Michael Bishop.

That all seems crazy in retrospect, but in 2000 Brady was getting no respect from anyone in football. With that lack of pedigree on most teams he could easily have not been given the chance he needed to get playing time to develop into the GOAT .

When "#1 overall pick franchise QB" Drew Bledsoe came back from his injury and Belichick stuck with Brady some sportswriters in this town wanted Belichick's head for that decision. If you told anyone even at the end of the 2001 regular season that Brady could become the GOAT you'd be laughed at by everyone in football.

Belichick deserves little credit for drafting him, but everything for giving Brady the chance to play and for developing him in his early years.

But once he was given the opportunity by Belichick, Brady's becoming the GOAT was Brady's personal triumphant accomplishment.

You pretty much nailed it.

Just by looking at his annual improvement using ANY/Y as a guidance it wasn't before 2004 (and his third SB appearance) when he made the jump into the "good QB" tier and then it took until 2007 until he joined the top tier.

He could have easily ended up selling insurance without BB trusting his gut and giving him the time and attention to develop into the GOAT. And yet some portion here acts as if the heavens opened and the skies wept in awe the moment Brady set first foot onto the field as a starter.

Of course Brady should get all the credit for his drive and competitiveness to grind thousand of hours to improve from a <6 ANY/A to almost breaking 9 in 2007 but that doesn't mean that this was some inevitability. Treating it as such cheapens his accomplishment as well as doesn't credit the coaching staff who spent countless hours with him in the beginning.

A lot of potentially great players never made it past 1-2 years due to circumstances that they couldn't affect or change.

sb1 · Jun 19, 2020

lancerman said:
The 16% is coming off a season we’re they went 16-0 and during a season where they went to a SB with Brady. It also features a QB who led a Todd led team to the playoffs and a QB who just went to the most recent SB.

It also features one of 3 seasons we didn’t make the playoffs with him and one of the few shutouts he endured

The same QB that hadn’t started since high school and looked awful that preseason and was talked about as being a cut candidate. And then he turned into a pretty good QB. Sure sounds like good coaching to me!

lancerman · Jun 19, 2020

sb1 said:
The same QB that hadn’t started since high school and looked awful that preseason and was talked about as being a cut candidate. And then he turned into a pretty good QB. Sure sounds like good coaching to me!

And he still led a team to the playoffs two years later.

Here’s my issue, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth when it is convenient. With Cassell you want to use pre NFL work to prove Belichick’s genius with him. With Brady you want to say he was unproven even though he was very successful and viewed as the most clutch QB in college during his time.

You can’t have it both ways. Todd Haley got a better season out of Garopollo than Belichick

Ras-IR Dowling · Jun 19, 2020

lancerman said:
And he still led a team to the playoffs two years later.

Here’s my issue, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth when it is convenient. With Cassell you want to use pre NFL work to prove Belichick’s genius with him. With Brady you want to say he was unproven even though he was very successful and viewed as the most clutch QB in college during his time.

You can’t have it both ways. Todd Haley got a better season out of Garopollo than Belichick

Well let’s take a deeper look into cassels 2008 v 2010 seasons.

Experience
BB- cassel had no prior starting experience prior to 2008.
Haley-cassel started 30 games prior to 2010 including 1 full season under Haley’s offense. That’s a huge advantage for Haley with all the experience Cassel gained those past 2 seasons playing.

Stats
Under BB 63comp% 3600 yrds 21 tds 11 int

Under Haley 58com% 3100 yds 27 tds 7 int

I’d call it a wash

Record
BB 11-5 2nd in AFCE. Rare instance when an 11 win team doesn’t at least get a 5 or 6 seed

Haley 10-6 first in AFCW. Yes they made the playoffs but their record was actually worse

So in reality did Haley get a better year out of Cassel than BB?

DropKickFlutie · Jun 19, 2020

sb1 said:
Probably. I am very pro Belichick for sure I think it’s a bit silly to say Bill is not a good coach and he’ll fall flat on his face without Brady and offering up his W-L track record from almost 3 decades ago as “evidence“ of this. That’s as weak an argument as it gets. Sour grapes imo.

In a league with 53 person rosters and 100 play calls every game plus a punishing salary cap, I'm going with the legendary coach/GM every time instead of 1 player.

.

lancerman · Jun 19, 2020

Ras-IR Dowling said:
Well let’s take a deeper look into cassels 2008 v 2010 seasons.

Experience
BB- cassel had no prior starting experience prior to 2008.
Haley-cassel started 30 games prior to 2010 including 1 full season under Haley’s offense. That’s a huge advantage for Haley with all the experience Cassel gained those past 2 seasons playing.

Stats
Under BB 63comp% 3600 yrds 21 tds 11 int

Under Haley 58com% 3100 yds 27 tds 7 int

I’d call it a wash

Record
BB 11-5 2nd in AFCE. Rare instance when an 11 win team doesn’t at least get a 5 or 6 seed

Haley 10-6 first in AFCW. Yes they made the playoffs but their record was actually worse

So in reality did Haley get a better year out of Cassel than BB?

I would say so because you aren’t accounting how the weak schedule the Pats had was a contributing factor to why 11-5 didn’t equal a playoff birth and the fact that Cassell has a much better team around him in NE.

Ras-IR Dowling · Jun 19, 2020

lancerman said:
I would say so because you aren’t accounting how the weak schedule the Pats had was a contributing factor to why 11-5 didn’t equal a playoff birth and the fact that Cassell has a much better team around him in NE.

Just so your aware the chiefs had an easier schedule in 2010 than we did in 2008. (.414 opponent win % to .480 for us). In fact kc had the easiest schedule in the league that year. (We had the 8th easiest in 08)

For talent around him, something that could really help a qb like a Matt Cassel is a run game. Our leading rusher in 2008 was Sammy Morris at 700 or so yards. In 2010 Jamal Charles ran for double that. On top of that Thomas Jones also ran for 900.

lancerman · Jun 19, 2020

Ras-IR Dowling said:
Just so your aware the chiefs had an easier schedule in 2010 than we did in 2008. (.414 opponent win % to .480 for us). In fact kc had the easiest schedule in the league that year. (We had the 8th easiest in 08)

For talent around him, something that could really help a qb like a Matt Cassel is a run game. Our leading rusher in 2008 was Sammy Morris at 700 or so yards. In 2010 Jamal Charles ran for double that. On top of that Thomas Jones also ran for 900.

Okay fine on the schedules, but Cassell got a much easier shake with his offense in New England.

rochrist · Jun 19, 2020

lancerman said:
He had 7 full seasons without Brady. How many winning seasons. How many playoff wins.

It’s entirely foolish to say he doesn’t have questions to answer without Brady

From the NY media of all people:

The game plan was a stroke of genius, one of the greatest of all time. It was so perfect, so remarkable, that the entire thing — pages and pages of words and diagrams inside a big blue binder — now rests in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

So imagine what it was like 25 years ago, when the brain behind it — a bold, young defensive coordinator named Bill Belichick — stood in front of the 1990 Giants, just six days before his defense would take on the powerful, unstoppable, Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXV. The wisdom of his words must have been overwhelming. The brilliance of the strategy blinding.

"Yeah," said former Giants linebacker Carl Banks, "we weren't very happy about it at all."

No, they were not. And the players were not shy about voicing their displeasure, yelling at the genius that his plan was "insulting." Belichick was addressing a room filled with players who just a few years earlier had formed one of the greatest defenses in Giants history. They had the second-best defense, statistically in the league — fourth best against the run.

But Belichick, then all of 38, began his presentation with a dangerous idea and damning assessment. He told his proud players "We're going to let Thurman Thomas get 100 yards."

"For the group that we had, we didn't want anybody to get that amount of yards," said Banks, a Giants linebacker from 1984-92, and now an analyst on the team's radio broadcasts. "But as he began to explain the plan, we kind of understood why."

And that's where the genius began to come through. Belichick had done his homework, more than most coaches would have done. He had uncovered things that others had overlooked. He had a daring idea that he wasn't afraid to use. And as always, he was going to explain it and teach it well.

sb1 · Jun 19, 2020

Ras-IR Dowling said:
Fair enough. That makes sense that the people you get the most pushback from are those that tend to give TB the brunt of the accolades for our sustained success.

I also believe Belichick during his time as Jets DC had a lot to do with making the league aware of Drew Bledsoe's weaknesses as QB. He has a lot deeper insight into Brady. So there's no doubt he would dial up new and creative ways to stop Brady and be successful at it.

sb1 · Jun 19, 2020

lancerman said:
And he still led a team to the playoffs two years later.

Would he have done that if someone else was Patriots coach in his first year as starter instead of Belichick? Probably not. And round we go.

Here’s my issue, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth when it is convenient. With Cassell you want to use pre NFL work to prove Belichick’s genius with him. With Brady you want to say he was unproven even though he was very successful and viewed as the most clutch QB in college during his time.

You can’t have it both ways. Todd Haley got a better season out of Garopollo than Belichick

Cassel was BAD in preseason, and no real experience as I said. The fact he became serviceable and got the team to 11 wins says just about all that needs to be said about how well he was coached. He didn't magically become a serviceable to good QB for the Pats and Chiefs on his own.

How would Brady have done if a guy like Dave Wannastedt was his coach? I would guess not nearly as well as he has with Bill.

It's silly Bradyite talk to dismiss Belichick as a product of Brady.

lancerman · Jun 19, 2020

rochrist said:
From the NY media of all people:

The game plan was a stroke of genius, one of the greatest of all time. It was so perfect, so remarkable, that the entire thing — pages and pages of words and diagrams inside a big blue binder — now rests in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

So imagine what it was like 25 years ago, when the brain behind it — a bold, young defensive coordinator named Bill Belichick — stood in front of the 1990 Giants, just six days before his defense would take on the powerful, unstoppable, Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXV. The wisdom of his words must have been overwhelming. The brilliance of the strategy blinding.

"Yeah," said former Giants linebacker Carl Banks, "we weren't very happy about it at all."

No, they were not. And the players were not shy about voicing their displeasure, yelling at the genius that his plan was "insulting." Belichick was addressing a room filled with players who just a few years earlier had formed one of the greatest defenses in Giants history. They had the second-best defense, statistically in the league — fourth best against the run.

But Belichick, then all of 38, began his presentation with a dangerous idea and damning assessment. He told his proud players "We're going to let Thurman Thomas get 100 yards."

"For the group that we had, we didn't want anybody to get that amount of yards," said Banks, a Giants linebacker from 1984-92, and now an analyst on the team's radio broadcasts. "But as he began to explain the plan, we kind of understood why."

And that's where the genius began to come through. Belichick had done his homework, more than most coaches would have done. He had uncovered things that others had overlooked. He had a daring idea that he wasn't afraid to use. And as always, he was going to explain it and teach it well.

lancerman · Jun 19, 2020

sb1 said:
Would he have done that if someone else was Patriots coach in his first year as starter instead of Belichick? Probably not. And round we go.

Cassel was BAD in preseason, and no real experience as I said. The fact he became serviceable and got the team to 11 wins says just about all that needs to be said about how well he was coached. He didn't magically become a serviceable to good QB for the Pats and Chiefs on his own.

How would Brady have done if a guy like Dave Wannastedt was his coach? I would guess not nearly as well as he has with Bill.

It's silly Bradyite talk to dismiss Belichick as a product of Brady.

Again you are attributing these little golden carrots to Belichick and then ignore the fundamental thing that coaches are graded on and his lack of success there. He still didn’t make the playoffs. He dropped 5 games. A team that was 1-15 shot up and tied him. The only times in NE he didn’t have Brady he missed the playoffs. He has 1 playoff win 7 full seasons without Brady. He has 2 winning seasons out of 7 without Brady. The only time the Rivers led Chargers beat then was without Brady. The first time the Steelers beat them at home was without Brady.

You can dress it up and say Cassell didn’t play in college , but Todd Haley got virtually the same performance and a playoff berth with Cassell on a worse team.

Sorry Belichick right now is a coach who has had no playoff success without Brady in the better part of a decade of chances.

He has a lot to prove

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