‘The Last Dance’ Jerry Krause = BB the GM?

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
I don't think Krause was/is highly regarded at all. He didn't draft 23. Pip was an easy top 5 - 10 pick. Arguably the best in his class.
He made a few good moves, no doubt but did more harm than good imo. He wasn't the GM of that team. Jordan was. MJ literally did everything. His energy, presence, unwillingness to lose commanded others attention. Jordan was the guy rallying the troops to focus on a singular goal with chaos around them. That couldn't be more evident imo. Krause wasn't the glue or even handled his job well. Sure they had Scottie by the balls but how much unnecessary drama did that cause? Again they had all the leverage so throwing him a bone when he was like the 75th highest player in the league. Not even top 5 on his own team. Would have done wonders.
The constant meddling and trying to break up a dynasty was borderline insane considering the level everyone was still playing at. Imagine the old Bulls defending their title against SA and/or LAL. Jordan was still the best player in the sport even at his age. Again just insane instead of adding pieces.

Comparing him to Bill is embarrassing. GM Bill isn't as good as HC Bill but Bill the GM is top tier. We'll know more soon but he's made enough moves independent of Brady to solidify that spot. Draft, contacts, trades, FA ... He's had his misses on all but a lot more +++ than --- imo. I'm a player/talent > scheme/coaching guy but Bill is a borderline football god. He pushes the margins and really makes a difference.

Krause was good in a few areas. Bill has hit homes from every position on the field. Coach/teacher, draft, FA/Contracts, trades.

The Welker & Moss trades are stuff of legend as far as I'm concerned lol. Moss had like 50 TDs in 51 games. Helped us set the league on fire & brought some of the best out of Brady. We fell a little short and it hurts more than any other lose but as a Pats fan it's just another great chapter in this story.

So for a 2nd, 4th & 7th. Bill got almost 1000 recs, 90 TDs, 11000 yards from those two.

I'm truly excited to see where he goes post-12. Offensively and defensively. Really interested to see where he goes and how he does? How long he'll coach? Again I'm just pumped we have and really intrigued to see which direction he takes us in.

I find it interesting that posters flip between saying "Krause is obviously HoF GM" to "Krause is not highly regarded at all". Hope that's not the legacy of BB the GM after this decision.

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

Username said:
You think you've read the dumbest hot take this place has to offer and then.....

And then you read a reply to a post as vacuous as yours.

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

Lagaffe_07 said:
You don’t need to act like for those two streches BB had awful QB.

Maybe if he had those results with a QB like Nathan Petterman maybe i would have gone in your direction.

Cassel went 11-5 on a team where Brady Would have been 14-2 and Cassel was elected in the pro bowl two years after that.

Jimmy G was a very good QB with a lot of promise and he just played in a SB. And Brisset won some games two.

so don’t act like BB has done it with nothing!

Agreed but also it's a small sample size.

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

Gronk said:
The real villain of the Bulls’ demise is Reinsdorf. And he shamelessly used a dead man to take all the flak in his interviews for Last Dance. Krause had his faults, and his neediness for public “credit” was chief among them. He won executive of the year awards, he was written and talked about (still is) as one of the best GMs of his era. But he couldn’t ever just let the players shine - I think there are a lot of difference here but THAT’S where any comparison to BB shatters. Bill knows he’s not out there blocking and tackling. I get that there is this belief that BB is a back room egomaniac who has been licking his chops to get rid of Brady, but I think he’s just an extreme pragmatist. They finally reached a point where they couldn’t legitimately keep Brady and give him a roster that they could expect him to win with. One Last Ride would have been nice, and I hate that Brady is gone, but it happened in 2018 and Brady just outlived it. Gotta teach em how to say goodbye.

Reinsdorf’s laziness, loyalty, and cheapass-ness are the real culprits here. Jordan and Pippen inflated the value of the Bulls franchise how many hundreds of times over? And this guy was too cheap to re-negotiate Pip’s contract because, why? He’d have to do the same for Bill Wennington? Lol what a joke. He was happy to let Krause take the heat because he didn’t want to spend $50m (probably at least for MJ, Pip, Phil, and a new PF) to try to run it back in ‘99. That’s ok, it’s your team, but then OWN that decision and don’t be like “oh well the GM was ready to move on!”

It can be seen with Krause’s successors, Gar/Pax, who got, oh, a solid 15 years of failure in before finally being fired (but not even fired, “reassigned”). It can be seen in his other team, the White Sox, where he has routinely maintained executives for decades despite them having outlived their natural tenure - they won the WS in ‘05, and once all the moving and shaking of trying to repeat that lightning-in-a-bottle season failed the team miserably, they finally just promoted the GM up to team president, and are in like their 4th “rebuild”, just like the Bulls.

The real “oops” for the Bulls in terms of the mismanagement of this situation was not anticipating how MJ and Scotties antipathy toward the franchise affected other players not wanting to come there. No matter how much cap they cleared, or who they drafted, no superstar FA takes Chicago seriously as a landing spot. To this day. I don’t think that will be the same for NE, partly because NBA was and is much more a players league. But there will likely be less of the “vet minimum” or guy-seeking-ring and coming to NE to chase it type deal for now.

There seems to a creeping need for BB to also have public credit. I hope I am wrong but it seems to be there's a real drive and motivation for BB to prove that he can do it without Brady. I hope that's not the case. Because that would mean we let go of Brady for the wrong reasons.

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

robertweathers said:
Typical Biffins trash.

I love you too.

robertweathers said:
Not even close to the same situations.

I appreciate the thoroughness of your analysis and response. The intellectual mettle behind your arguments is on full display.

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

Wozzy said:
Tom is closer to Washington Wizard's Jordan now, so the comparison is absurd.

Jordan had just won the Championship and Brady is one year removed from winning the SB. It's a one year difference I agree. But it's not "absurd".

Betterthanmost · Jun 18, 2020

Biffins said:
You're right. I've never "come at the man" before. I haven't yet defended Brady and criticised BB in any post ever before. I am only using this Krause example and not coming at BB directly.................... oh wait.............

Hey, you can't get back at me like that, I am your friendly other loony who supports AB @Ring 6 . Come on..

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

patfanken said:
The optics on Krause were very purposeful by Jordon, as were the optics on Pippen. Jordon was being Jordon I guess and never forgetting or forgiving ANY slight, real or perceived.

Within the so called context of "the last dance", there was absolutely no NEED even to mention that playoff incident. This documentary was about JORDAN. So why gratuitously throw in a bad look for Pippin during a season Jordon wasn't playing and a game the Bulls WON! Really? Michael and his boys just trotting out Pippen's worst NBA moment for no apparent reason other than to demean the 2nd most important player on those Bull's teams. It was simply mean and irrelevant to the context of the series.

I think the same goes for Krausse to a lesser degree. He was a good GM overall, but a guy who made good moves and bad, like every GM who ever took the job. HOF GM?, I don't think so, but not the booggy man that this series makes him out to be.

As to the OP, it was a bad read, Biff. This off season has nothing to do with the theory that Bill "got rid" of Brady simply to prove he can win without him. That is a supposition that has zero merit based on all the definitive evidence over 25years of being a HC.

Is it really that hard to imagine a Brady documentary 20 years from now in which he throws shade at BB or even throws him under the bus for letting him go?

We'll see but I suspect we'll start seeing press conferences from Brady even this season after some great performances talking about how his ex-team thought he was over the hill and Old Man Brady and how they'll regret it etc. And maybe even talking about BB's grinding programme and demeanour and throwing shade at him. Let's see.

Wozzy · Jun 18, 2020

Biffins said:
Small sample set for HC of Pats without Brady

For HC without Brady (including Browns) BB is 0.46.

Take a collection of Bill Walsh, Jimmie Johnson, Chuck Noll, Tom Landry, George Halas, Andy Reid, Don Shula, Curly Lambeau and any other great coach you can think of with their first couple seasons then tell us their collective record.

It takes a season or two to do a complete roster overhaul and rebuild a team in your image.

"Small sample size" is Bill's career in Cleveland added to his first year in New England... no offense but this example of why Bill sucks without Tom is about as dumb as saying Bill gets no credit for drafting and cultivating Brady.

BTW how many championships did Tom win at Michigan, also why was he a 6th round pick... since he was such a dynamo prior to Belichick?

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

vuudu said:
Hey, you can't get back at me like that, I am your friendly other loony who supports AB @Ring 6 . Come on..

ahahah ok ok ok ok . Kiss and make-up?

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

lancerman said:
Yeah he’s Jerry Krause

if Jerry Krause drafted Michael Jordan

if Jerry Krause was also Phil Jackson

if Jerry Krause reloaded multiple times for multiple championships and built entirely new teams

if Jerry Krause was beloved by the players

Krause lucked into Jordan. BB lucked into Brady at 6th round.

Krause nurtured and grew Jackson for a decade at Bulls, and made him HC. BB did that for himself.

Krause also reloaded multiple times, he won 6 championships. So did BB.

Krause was not loved by his players. By all accounts, neither is BB. Respected at best.

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

BelizePats said:
I could not have said it better. Biffins struggles a great deal when posting.

hey that's mean!

Biffins · Jun 18, 2020

TheRainMaker said:
Where is @Biffins?

Post and then disappear?

Nah, was just a bit busy. Catching up now.

Wozzy · Jun 18, 2020

Biffins said:
Krause lucked into Jordan. BB lucked into Brady at 6th round.

There's no such thing as a lucky draft pick... it's literally in the name; "pick."

lancerman · Jun 18, 2020

Biffins said:
Krause lucked into Jordan. BB lucked into Brady at 6th round.

Krause nurtured and grew Jackson for a decade at Bulls, and made him HC. BB did that for himself.

Krause also reloaded multiple times, he won 6 championships. So did BB.

Krause was not loved by his players. By all accounts, neither is BB. Respected at best.

Krause didn’t draft Jordan. Belichick not only drafted Brady he kept Brady on the squad.

It’s impossible for Krause to have but there’s Phil for a decade when he became coach after two years of being an assistant and his first three peat happened 2 years later.

Basketball has 5 starters. Jordan (who Krause didn’t draft) and Pippen were 40% of the team for all 6 titles. Horace Grant also had been on the team since 1987, same with Bill Cartwright. And John Paxson came on in 1985. So most of the first dynasty was together very early. Then retaining the most important 40% of his starting lineup traded for Rodman. And Longley, Harper and Kukoc were already on the bench in the first dynasty.

So by reload you mean he kept the two biggest players (one he didn’t draft) and then traded for Rodman and brought two guys off the bench.

Meanwhile outside of Brady there are no common players from the 2004 SB to the 2016 SB. He also had massive turnovers in 2007 and 2010

Krause was routinely mocked by all the players under him. Moss who left on bad terms still loves him, Brady never says a bad word about him, Revis was crying thanking him for a SB, nearly everyone but a few outliers speak glowingly of him.

sb1 · Jun 18, 2020

Biffins said:
Small sample set for HC of Pats without Brady

For HC without Brady (including Browns) BB is 0.46.

Bill coached the Browns almost 3 decades ago, and that record has an asterisk because the plug was pulled on the franchise. The "losses" after that decision was made couldn't be any more meaningless.

11-5 in 08 and 3-1 in 2016 is much more relevant than that to me. And BB of course is a better coach now than he was then, just like Brady is a better QB now than he was in 01.

Patriot Missile · Jun 18, 2020

Big difference between a 53 man roster and a 15 man roster. Huge miss right there.

Ring 6 · Jun 18, 2020

vuudu said:
Hey, you can't get back at me like that, I am your friendly other loony who supports AB @Ring 6 . Come on..

Why did you call me into this?

Betterthanmost · Jun 18, 2020

Ring 6 said:
Why did you call me into this?

Wrong thread. It was stuck in the box and a bit transparent so I did not see.

patfanken · Jun 18, 2020

Biffins said:
Is it really that hard to imagine a Brady documentary 20 years from now in which he throws shade at BB or even throws him under the bus for letting him go?

We'll see but I suspect we'll start seeing press conferences from Brady even this season after some great performances talking about how his ex-team thought he was over the hill and Old Man Brady and how they'll regret it etc. And maybe even talking about BB's grinding programme and demeanour and throwing shade at him. Let's see.

C'mon Biff. Why don't you just admit that your OP was wrongheaded. We've all had bad insights on what is happening over the years. Please don't compound your error with your continuing poor observations.

What in the 20 years we've had the privilege of watching Tom Brady makes you believe that he'd EVER have a bad word to say about the Patriots, Bill, Bob, or any of his former teammates and coaches. Nothing but your warped imagination.

Now will the media TRY and impose this narrative on us in the coming months. You BETCHA they will. With every Pats defeat and Bucs win, OR visa versa, they will hammer us with your narrative or the many associated ones. WHY? Because it's EASY. It almost writes itself, over and over and over and OVER again.

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