Setting Stidham up for Success

Ras-IR Dowling · Jun 13, 2020

lancerman said:
Again he took over a team that had 3 conference titles games in the 6 years before he got there. They were bad in 1990 because Carson sucked not the team. He actually retained a large portion of the teams feature players. Yes we will never know whet would have happened if he wasn’t fired, but he sill was 1 out of 5 in winning seasons. We also know that everyone involved looked at what he did and basically dismantled it and rebuilt and they were proven right by winning a SB in the same amount of time Bill had with the team.

Which leads me to my overall point they he did nothing impressive in Cleveland. Plenty of coaches took much worse teams to a playoff in quicker time than Bill did there and a chunk maintained it, which he didn’t do. He’s getting lenience and spin because of who he is.

When you said he retained a large number of their former players I was curious. He did retain 10/11 offensive starters and most skill positions remained the same minus Ozzie newsome at TE. OL was misleading as he kept 4/5 starters but only 2 of those were starters in 91. Essentially he’s replaced 60% of the line.

Defense is an entire different story. Of the 11 starters on the 90 defense he retained 5, and only 3 were starters. That’s not only a major overhaul in personnel they were also switching to his style of defense.

Of the total roster he replaced over half between 90 and 91. That’s pretty much an overhaul of the roster. Like a few of us have said, a rebuild. And Even though it took a while to become successful it stinks that he wasn’t able to see it through. Worked out for us though making it to the Super Bowl the following year with BB as DC.

Sfpat · Jun 13, 2020

sb1 said:
The end of a franchise is a bit more than “outside noise”

11-5 with Cassel and a sub par defense
3-1 with a green JG and Jacoby Brissett

Seems our former QB didn’t have quite as much to do with how good Bill is as coach as some of us would like to think. I think they’ll be more where that came from this season.

And the one loss with JG/Brisset was with a rookie third string QB with a broken thumb who couldn't throw. I'd think BB would have forfeited that game if given the choice. Hard to score when everyone knows the QB can't throw.

Wozzy · Jun 13, 2020

Who's most singularly responsible for the Patriot dynasty?

Belichick is the answer... he drafted Brady.

He carried 4 QB's on the roster which is nearly unheard of, and when Bledsoe went down he put Brady in.

He also drafted Richard Seymour. If BB doesn't draft Seymour there are no championships from 2001-2004... they simply don't happen. There is no legend of Brady.

If Brady goes to the Cardinals, he disappears into the annals of history. If he is unlucky enough to win the starting position behind the worst O-Line in the league in 2000 his career is over in 3-4 years and he walks with a limp.

This isn't basketball where one player can change a loser into a winner overnight. And before you say it, the 2001 team was one of the best roster flips in history, they got extremely lucky with health... but BB brought value vets in who all started and contributed, they didn't just appear out of the mist... neither did Brady.

Football is the ultimate team sport, and the best team from 1-53 wins, not the team who has the best QB. That's a complete fanboy take.

Drew Brees led the NFL in passing in 2016, his defense was ranked 32nd in the league.

That ^ team went 7-9... tell me again how it's all about the QB.

rochrist · Jun 14, 2020

lancerman said:
Do you give coaches credit for a team winning a SB 5 years after the coach leaves lol? Really? So Parcells and Caroll get credit for 2001-04?

But lets dispell this myth.

Quarterbacks: none of QB’s were on the team Belichick coached in the 2000 season.

Running Backs. none of the running backs when BB left were there

Wide Receivers: none of the wide receivers that Belichick had in his final year were on the team.

Tight Ends: Not a single TE was on the team and the best skill player on offense was Sharpe who came on in 2000.

Offensive Line: not a single offensive lineman in 1995 was there.

*so at this point the entire offense had nothing to do with Bill picking them.

Defensive Line: Rob Burnett and a Larry Webster were there. The problem is Burnett was drafted in 1990 before Bill was the coach. So only Larry Webster was because of Belichick. Oh and Larry Webster was suspended in 2000 and only played 5 r
Dudegular season games

Linebackers: none of the linebackers were on Belichick’s squad. The closest you get is Ray Lewis was drafted with a pick Belichick traded for. That’s how far you have to reach.

Defensive backs: again not a single defensive back was on Belichick’s last Brown’s team

Special teams: Matt Stover the kicker was picked up in 1991 by Bill’s regime.

So Bill is responsible for a defensive end who played 5 regular season games and the kicker. Everyone else was brought in after he left.

Can you please tell me how he is responsible for building a team that won a SB 5 years after he was gone with only 2 common players, one of whom played less than a third of the season and the other a kicker?

The best you can say is Belichick gave them an All Pro kicker.

Please justify your take

Dude, it's from your own post and it's in your own words!

And to go a step further, the Ravens which was really the team he coached, won 2 SB’s and one was 5 years after he was fired and they were consistently one of the better AFC teams

luuked · Jun 14, 2020

lancerman said:
Two years before he got there they were in the AFCCG. 1 of 3 appearances in the 6 years before. They had a bad year right after. However the team retained the same starting QB, 3 of the RB’s on the team, 3 of their top WR’s, both offensive tackles an All Pro Defensive End, 2 LBs including a pro Bowl Clay Matthews, and 3 defensive backs including an All Pro and multi time Pro Bowler in Minnifield.

He pretty much retained the core of the team

Of course the problem was the talent and more specifically the age of the team. This was a team on decline and all numbers in the years before BB got there prove that point. The improvement within the first two years shows how he rebuilt the team on the fly and why the 95' Browns started the season as SB contenders before all hell opened up thanks to their scumbag owner.

Was he as experienced as he is now ? No of course not. But 2001 BB was not as good of a coach as the 2008 version of himself the same way that his 2014 version was superior to all that came before. And 2020 will be the best yet. In other words: Of course there is a compounding effect over time but that is not even something that needs to be talked about because that is just fundamental logic. That being said we are talking about refinement and adjustments to rules and trends here.

As Daniel Jeremiah pointed out the fundamentals of team building was the same with the Browns (and with Ozzie's Ravens) as it has been with the Pats:

The timelessness of his vision of how to construct a team pretty much tells you all you need to know. Similarly, his staff turned into a total star group of coaches and executives.

The only difference is that he didn't have a hand picked QB and didn't get the time to see everything through thanks to the move. The Pats' unprecedented success and his turnaround of the Browns was built on the same foundation.

sb1 · Jun 14, 2020

Our ex QB is certainly a better QB than he was 20 years ago. Not sure why BB doesn’t get the same benefit of the doubt for his improvement from 25 years ago.

sb1 · Jun 14, 2020

Wozzy said:
If Brady goes to the Cardinals, he disappears into the annals of history. If he is unlucky enough to win the starting position behind the worst O-Line in the league in 2000 his career is over in 3-4 years and he walks with a limp.

Careful. That might trigger the Bradyites!
Like my post did where I said our former QB would be out of the league by now if BB didn’t give him a shot.

lancerman · Jun 14, 2020

rochrist said:
Dude, it's from your own post and it's in your own words!

And to go a step further, the Ravens which was really the team he coached, won 2 SB’s and one was 5 years after he was fired and they were consistently one of the better AFC teams

They had a kicker and a defensive end who played 5 games that season.

I’ll ask you again, do you give him credit for that Super Bowl? If you do, do you give Caroll credit for 2001, 2003, 2004?

Ras-IR Dowling · Jun 14, 2020

lancerman said:
They had a kicker and a defensive end who played 5 games that season.

I’ll ask you again, do you give him credit for that Super Bowl? If you do, do you give Caroll credit for 2001, 2003, 2004?

Who on here is giving BB credit for Baltimore’s 2000 title?

Betterthanmost · Jun 14, 2020

I think they're such a well prepared team, they're such a well coached team. Really, when I say that I don't want to diminish the amount of talent they have on that roster and the players they have.
'Is it going to be different? Absolutely it's going to be different,' Pioli added. 'But I don't believe it's going to be as significant a drop off as some people are saying. There's going to be this transition.

'Part of what they have there is a culture and people, I have this belief that more games in the NFL are lost than won and something that the New England Patriots team has done consistently under Bill Belichick is not lose games.

'There's more teams that lose games because they're not prepared for situational football than teams going out and winning games.'

Former Patriots executive Scott Pioli downplays impact of Tom Brady's departure from New England | Daily Mail Online

jimnance · Jun 14, 2020

sb1 said:
Careful. That might trigger the Bradyites!
Like my post did where I said our former QB would be out of the league by now if BB didn’t give him a shot.

Funny you say that. You're maybe the most triggered poster here. You got some kind of weird thing about Brady.
Very childish.
I greatly appreciate both Belichick and Brady. They're both the GOATs. They made each other I better.
But they BOTH would've likely been the GOATs even w/o each other.
Your **** has been as old as the knuckleheads who trash BB here.

sb1 · Jun 14, 2020

jimnance said:
Funny you say that. You're maybe the most triggered poster here. You got some kind of weird thing about Brady.
Very childish.
I greatly appreciate both Belichick and Brady. They're both the GOATs. They made each other I better.
But they BOTH would've likely been the GOATs even w/o each other.
Your **** has been as old as the knuckleheads who trash BB here.

Bill maybe. Brady no way.

jimnance · Jun 14, 2020

sb1 said:
Bill maybe. Brady no way.

Well at least you're consistent.
Consistently weird. Consistently wrong.
But consistent nonetheless.

sb1 · Jun 14, 2020

jimnance said:
Well at least you're consistent.
Consistently weird. Consistently wrong.
But consistent nonetheless.

So it sounds like you’re saying if Brady was drafted by the Lions or Bengals in 2000 and not the Patriots that he could be GOAT eventually.
I can’t disagree more with that take.

DropKickFlutie · Jun 14, 2020

sb1 said:
So it sounds like you’re saying if Brady was drafted by the Lions or Bengals in 2000 and not the Patriots that he could be GOAT eventually.
I can’t disagree more with that take.

More than 50/50 chance if Brady doesn't get drafted by Belichick where Belichick has the Vulcan BALLS to keep all pro Bledsoe on the bench, that Tom Brady isn't even in the NFL by 2003. And I love Brady.

.

rochrist · Jun 14, 2020

lancerman said:
They had a kicker and a defensive end who played 5 games that season.

I’ll ask you again, do you give him credit for that Super Bowl? If you do, do you give Caroll credit for 2001, 2003, 2004?

Explain your own words then. Explain 'which was really the team he coached'.

lancerman · Jun 14, 2020

rochrist said:
Explain your own words then. Explain 'which was really the team he coached'.

The team he coached became the Ravens so comparing them to the lineage of the modern Browns who are a glorified expansion team is foolish. It’s not rocket science. Shouldn’t have been hard to keep up.

Now answer the question

PatsFanInVa · Jun 14, 2020

Wozzy said:
Believe it or not we're not entitled to a championship EVERY season.

Disagree. Regrettably, however, the league not only makes us work for it by having 31 other teams that actually believe they have every bit as much of a right to our beloved trophy as we do. Not only that, they have institutionalized a snowflake-coddling draft that gives the other teams better toys, and if that's not enough, they steal all NE's draft picks because we keep winning anyway.

So yeah, there are challenges to overcome.

sb1 said:
Belichick will lead this team to a decent record and then the questions about how much he really needed our former QB will be answered decisively.

That's bold! I like it.

jimnance · Jun 14, 2020

DropKickFlutie said:
More than 50/50 chance if Brady doesn't get drafted by Belichick where Belichick has the Vulcan BALLS to keep all pro Bledsoe on the bench, that Tom Brady isn't even in the NFL by 2003. And I love Brady.

.

Just a flat out ridiculous take.

jimnance · Jun 14, 2020

sb1 said:
So it sounds like you’re saying if Brady was drafted by the Lions or Bengals in 2000 and not the Patriots that he could be GOAT eventually.
I can’t disagree more with that take.

That's ok. Not everyone here really grasps NFL football.
Players/ coaches on the level of TB/BB will end up being great no matter where they go. It would take longer for both to achieve greatness and probably not to the degree they did.
But both would be all-time greats regardless.
Would Joe Montana and Bill Walsh both have sucked if they never were on the same team?
How about Russell and Aeurbach? Great players and coaches will still be great.
Just not AS great.

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