Should the Pats Acquire Josh Rosen?

mgteich said:

I just don't understand this NEW patriot team where competition for positions is not allowed, and one simply assumes that the potential starters will succeed.

In addition, even IF Stidham is a top 10 QB instead of top 35, we will still need a backup for the next three years. I guess folks simply assume that belichick will use a 5th round pick or a UDFA to get our backup next year.

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I’m all for competition but Rosen doesn’t bring anything more than the guys we already have. He sucks.

If you bring someone like potentially 2nd-3rd QB sure, but i think that even our UDF QBs have more potential than him

IllegalContact said:

no...they can get better QB's without a trade

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Yep, Sure thing........What could possibly go wrong with a cop hater today and his trusty incendiary girlfriend sidekick?
DW Toys

mgteich said:

After two and half years of poor coaching, we conclude that Rosen is hopeless. After a bit more information than that, we think that Hoyer is better.

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Hoyer showed he can run the Patriots offense comptently while Rosen got benched trying to do just that under O'Shea last year. I mean I don't know what to tell you more about this.

mgteich said:

In the end, competition is good. IMO, there is much more chance that Rosen COULD be a top 20 quarterback in the NFL than Hoyer. There is more chance that Rosen would be a solid backup in 2020.

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I completely disagree that there is a higher chance that Rosen will be able to give you more than Hoyer in 2020. Especially given the special circumstances everyone finds themselves in this year with COVID.

Hoyer needs 0 development or work to be the backup. The coaching staff can put a lot more resources into Stidham with having Hoyer as fallback option than if there was a competition where you have to polish up and tutor two young QBs at the same time.

We have been through this every year. There are only so many snaps with the 1s to give away in camp and practice. If it wasn't for this resource allocation problem and they could just send any player into a holodeck for reps it would make all the sense in the world to stack talented QBs especially during times where the roster size is expanded. Alas this is not the world we live in.

mgteich said:

Are you really saying that all players judged to have talent and who have played for 2 teams in their first couple of years are hopeless. It you who "assumes". Those of us who favor adding a QB see an opportunity to have a cheap backup and some competition for Stidham, probably more in 2021. Do you really want to look around the league next year for competition if Stidham isn't a top 20 quarterback? Perhaps, we will simply judge him to be a top 20 quarterback because he is ours. We have an opportunity to bring in a backup who could compete with the anointed one. IMO, Rosen has a much better chance at being the 2021 backup than a UDFA who will be on the Practice Squad.

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You are just building a huge strawmen with a scenario where a) the downside of letting go the only QB on the roster who has shown he can successfully run the Patriots system is suddenly irrelevant. Which might be true for you and other fans as they just flip the channel to another game but it is far from the reality for the HC, the front office and the rest of the players on this team. And b) where apparently the number of reps is not limited but infinite like in some video game. In the real world where you have optimization problems like this you have to make tradeoffs and projections to not end up standing around empty handed.

Again, you might be fine going all in risking a totally thrown season but the organization from top to bottom is obviously not.

This is not Madden or Fantasy football where you just replace one player who is a 71 with someone who is a 75 and call it a day. There is so much more nuance to why having Hoyer here makes all the sense in the world especially this year. And even though it bores people to death his EXPERIENCE is the absolute key point here. In this sport and especially this organization coaches prefer the known average player to the unpredictable unknown player any day.

I am baffled how this -- especially in a season already substantially affected by COVID -- needs to be pointed out.

signbabybrady said:

It's more than knows the system he has starting experience and even lead a team to the playoffs. You can say what you want about his upside but there is a proven baseline that BB appears more than comfortable with.

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The man hasn't won a football game he started in 3 years. When you've got a virtual rookie at the reins, you need a backup who can start and win games if he has to. Heck, that's a pretty basic requirement of being a backup and it doesn't describe Hoyer anymore.

No one would have any problem with Hoyer being on the coaching roster where his knowledge and ability to master the scout team and be almost an NFL QB would really help him out. But the man can't play on the field anymore. he hasn't been able to play on the field since 2015 or so. Being the QB2 when he hasn't won a game since 2016 when he went 1-4 for the Bears is more than enough to make anyone justly nervous.

I mean even if Stidham balls, what if he gets hurt? And what if he doesn't ball and needs a game or 2 off to get his head right? We can't just place blind faith in one dude we don't know.

Now that said Rosen is not the answer, dude is way too volatile, and you don't use a project QB to back up another project QB. But I do think we need a better QB2 and I'm surprised that Belichick decided Hoyer was adequate when unless Stidham starts 16 games, which is a huge ask for a guy who's never started an NFL game before, Hoyer isn't adequate at all.

luuked said:

Again, because you keep ignoring the main point here.

In what universe is this bonkers offseason where practice and coaching time has been totally gutted the time to swap the QB with experience and who already established he can run the offense competently for a total wildcard that has lost his job twice in his first two years.

And it is not only that he lost his job in Miami but he got benched trying to run the very same offense we run. And failed.

I get that some people prefer to go for the high variance lottery tickets that have a small chance of paying off but QB is not the place for that unless you want to throw the season. Something BB is clearly not interested in doing. He wants to win.

Despite his depressing average skillset odds are Hoyer will still give you more in this specific year with this particular offense than Rosen.

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Again...who the hell said we’re running the same offense? BB suits his schemes around the players, not the players around the scheme. We may see a different, more diversified offense utilizing Stid’s mobility as well as the other pieces added to the offense within the last 2 years. Brady’s gone, so BB may be more inclined to somewhat break away from a lot of the EP option route stuff that has hindered many players past & present. I get your point @luuked. I’m not disagreeing with you, but all I’m saying is that Hoyer is WACK, and it may not be as essential to keep him around as one may usually figure due to a change in the offensive scheme. Also, Rosen can’t be much worse than Hoyer. I’d love to test theory in this system. Again nothing is absolute. None of us really know what BB is thinking; but what else is new

mgteich said:

1) Yes, Smith and Lewerke may be solid competitors for the 3rd QB spot, a spot on the Practice Squad. There is very little reason to believe that either ill make the team as a 3rd QB, barring an injury.

2) What gooD would it be to wait until a couple of weeks before the season to sign Rosen, the likely time that they would cut him/ There is no incentive to do so before then. Maybe some team will make an offer by then.

3) I cannot judge whether Rosen is done. Maybe better coaching would help, maybe not.

4) Competition in camp is a good thing. And, yes I think we already have some competition in camp with Hoyer.

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IMO Cousins there are three Dark Horses I will mention at the end and neither are Brisset... I am honest when I say I am NOT a Newton Fan, but who gives us a better chance to win....Newton or Stidham?

As example #1. if I consume the Patriots Koolaid, you choose the player who gives you the best chance to win. That is unless Stidham is your choice.

If I am GM I am seeing if Newton will sign a Teddy deal for a year. Why? You still have to have the other Team game plan for Newton. A four man rush and safeties in the box will beat Stidham. My comparison is Mason Rudolph.

I have watched his film. Stidham did NOT play at a high level at Auburn. Rosen would definitely be the better "definite maybe" if he is to be considered. Look at the two Teams Rosen played for. He was sacked 48 times in AZ and 16 times in Miami in only 6 games. I am not really a Rosen Fan but if I am Josh and want to mold clay to build a QB. Rosen is the better choice to start with more skills to feature. Is Rosen a late bloomer?
Here is the one problem I see. Stidham might have more charisma to lead over Rosen. Give him that point.

Now go to example #2 Hoyer and ??????. I'd go with ????? Hoyer is a very good back up for a few quarters........only....again IMO.

DARK HORSE #1
Trubisky in a trade. Fowles is Nagy's man form past Teams. Trubiski had some serious decent numbers in 2018 and led the Bears to a playoff. He is only 25. He played through a hip injury all last year. He is still on his rookie contract so cheap investment in a "one year and we'll see" deal.

DARK HORSE #2
Carr in a trade. He is not a Gruden favorite and they picked up Mariota. He was from the last regime. Remember Gruden has made bold trades if you are not one of his guys like Mack. Carrs stats are pretty good. He had a better season in 2019. Was rated better than Brady. Still young and with what Stidham does not have...experience.

DARK HORSE #3
Stafford in a trade. He is a real good QB on a bad team for years that has allowed him to get beat up. He has great arm and intelligence to run our system. He has many good years left if we can protect him (32). The good news is that trading Stafford can actually save Matty P's job. They picked up Chase Daniel as a backup. He is actually a 70% completion passer. A little bit better Hoyer. He signed a 3 year 13 mIllion dollar contract with the Bears. Inexpensive but experienced. Now with my Quinn GM hat on. Daniels can hand the ball of as good as Stafford can. He is more durable. With the addition of Swift plus Kenyon Johnson and a beefed-up D, Matty P is playing Run and Defense. They have some solid TE's as well. A 2021 Patriots first-rounder could bring the Lions a second 1st round pick in 2021 they can build on 2020. Yep I am trading a 1st for Stafford. A big $ hit is the problem.

All of these three have had some good NFL tape. Stidham not so much.

Let me ask you a question Cousins....If your life depended on which QB would give you the most wins, would it be Stidham? If so, what flavor did you drink?

P.S. I hope I am wrong.
DW Toys

UptownPatsFan said:

Again...who the hell said we’re running the same offense?

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Of course we will run the same basic concept-based EP offense. Just because the QB has changed it doesn't mean you can't run most of that stuff anyway. It has been historically an amazing system that made players like LaFell or Hogan look like Tier 2 WRs. Hell, Stidham was drafted with his fit into that kind of offense in mind.

And, like I said in my original reply, of course they will add some specific plays for Stidham (or Hoyer if he starts) and remove some of those that were more Brady centric. But that is pruning and not changing the offense.

It will stay the same offense. Quote me on that in 3-4 months if you want.

UptownPatsFan said:

Also, Rosen can’t be much worse than Hoyer.

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Rosen literally failed to run the Patriots offense last year with the Dolphins and was benched. Hoyer has shown he can. What else is there to say ?

So, it could be very much worse than Hoyer. Not sure Rosen could be worse than Brisett back in 2016 but that's an unfair comparison.

DW Toys said:

IMO Cousins there are three Dark Horses I will mention at the end and neither are Brisset... I am honest when I say I am NOT a Newton Fan, but who gives us a better chance to win....Newton or Stidham?

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The guy who doesn't have 4 pounds of ground beef where the muscles and tendons of his right shoulder used to be.

No interest whatsoever in signing Newton as a starting QB. If he's interested in moving to TE we can talk.

As for the other scenarios you're talking about, they're typical hot stove fangasm drivel. Stafford is most certainly not leaving Detroit, and Carr and Trubiskey probably aren't leaving home either, at least not without some kind of assets going the other way. Of the three the only one I have any interest in is Carr, but the only one who has even a ghost of a sliver of a shred of an inkling of a glimmer of a chance of going anywhere at all is Trubiskey, and I don't want that trainwreck anywhere near my team.

The Patriots are not in the market for a starting quarterback right now, nor should they be. They've committed to Stidham, they owe him a chance to fail. What they SHOULD be doing, is finding a good tweener who can start for an extended period of time if Stidham struggles or gets hurt.

One thing that would be insane to even suggest is this ludicrous notion of trading for someone else's starter. Starting quarterbacks that can play at a high level do not get traded, there are exceptions but they generally prove the rule. Heck even the better tweeners are in high demand, the Colts won't even trade Brissett and he's literally dead weight on their roster right now.

DW Toys said:

IMO Cousins there are three Dark Horses I will mention at the end and neither are Brisset... I am honest when I say I am NOT a Newton Fan, but who gives us a better chance to win....Newton or Stidham?

As example #1. if I consume the Patriots Koolaid, you choose the player who gives you the best chance to win. That is unless Stidham is your choice.

If I am GM I am seeing if Newton will sign a Teddy deal for a year. Why? You still have to have the other Team game plan for Newton. A four man rush and safeties in the box will beat Stidham. My comparison is Mason Rudolph.

I have watched his film. Stidham did NOT play at a high level at Auburn. Rosen would definitely be the better "definite maybe" if he is to be considered. Look at the two Teams Rosen played for. He was sacked 48 times in AZ and 16 times in Miami in only 6 games. I am not really a Rosen Fan but if I am Josh and want to mold clay to build a QB. Rosen is the better choice to start with more skills to feature. Is Rosen a late bloomer?
Here is the one problem I see. Stidham might have more charisma to lead over Rosen. Give him that point.

Now go to example #2 Hoyer and ??????. I'd go with ????? Hoyer is a very good back up for a few quarters........only....again IMO.

DARK HORSE #1
Trubisky in a trade. Fowles is Nagy's man form past Teams. Trubiski had some serious decent numbers in 2018 and led the Bears to a playoff. He is only 25. He played through a hip injury all last year. He is still on his rookie contract so cheap investment in a "one year and we'll see" deal.

DARK HORSE #2
Carr in a trade. He is not a Gruden favorite and they picked up Mariota. He was from the last regime. Remember Gruden has made bold trades if you are not one of his guys like Mack. Carrs stats are pretty good. He had a better season in 2019. Was rated better than Brady. Still young and with what Stidham does not have...experience.

DARK HORSE #3
Stafford in a trade. He is a real good QB on a bad team for years that has allowed him to get beat up. He has great arm and intelligence to run our system. He has many good years left if we can protect him (32). The good news is that trading Stafford can actually save Matty P's job. They picked up Chase Daniel as a backup. He is actually a 70% completion passer. A little bit better Hoyer. He signed a 3 year 13 mIllion dollar contract with the Bears. Inexpensive but experienced. Now with my Quinn GM hat on. Daniels can hand the ball of as good as Stafford can. He is more durable. With the addition of Swift plus Kenyon Johnson and a beefed-up D, Matty P is playing Run and Defense. They have some solid TE's as well. A 2021 Patriots first-rounder could bring the Lions a second 1st round pick in 2021 they can build on 2020. Yep I am trading a 1st for Stafford. A big $ hit is the problem.

All of these three have had some good NFL tape. Stidham not so much.

Let me ask you a question Cousins....If your life depended on which QB would give you the most wins, would it be Stidham? If so, what flavor did you drink?

P.S. I hope I am wrong.
DW Toys

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I agree. However, all the choices you discussed would be difficult without trading Thuney.

I might ask how many points folks think that we would average under Stidham.

Simpelton said:

I think the odds of the Colts releasing him to cut their losses are pretty decent with the signing of Phillip Rivers.

Besides, I'm using Brissett as an example of a type of a tweener starter/backup who can start for an extended period if required, but isn't "supposed" to take over the team. Ryan Fitzpatrick is another example of the same type, so is Teddy Bridgewater and Tyrod Taylor. There's plenty of guys out there who can start if they have to, but if they're doing it for an extended period, it means the plan has failed.

And I could easily see the Patriots making a move for a guy like that if the money made sense, as an insurance policy, even if they had to move some contracts around to do it. When you have a rookie starter but want to be competitive even if he has growing pains, it's a fairly conventional play.

that said, if we do invest in a guy like that I'd love it to be Brissett, he's not a conventionally flashy QB, he's not gonna put up huge numbers, but he's also not going to give the ball away, his turnover rate was one of the lowest among NFL starters last year, and that's valuable. I think Brissett could lead a team with a good rushing attack into the playoffs. He was off to a good start at doing that before he hurt his knee last year.

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I would prefer to get someone like those three also, but those guys don't cost 2mill a year. Brisset got 15, Bridewater got 21M, Fitz and Taylor got 6mill. While we have no money under the cap, it is a lot easier to free up 2 mill than 6mil.

It's not like by NOT signing a guy like Rosen we're screwing the pooch as a SB contender this season. I'm all in on the Stitham guy with Hoyer as backup and hopefully one of the UDFA guys as a PS developmental wildcard.
Unless we trade or cut our Franchised guy we need to be careful with cap space as we'll likely generate just a few mill cap space by cuts or extensions elsewhere in the 53 and later spend that few million adding depth with a vet or 2 cut by others in preseason AND filling in for IRed players this season. Don't waste that few mill on Rosen.

When Rosen is cut and is a street FA, the only downside I'd see to signing him for low $$$ is making the choice between a)having a 3rd QB on the 53 man roster; or b) cutting Hoyer after he lost out to Rosen, under he assumption that Hoyer's system familiarity will help the starter by being a steadying voice in the QB room. The upside is unquestionably an upgrade in arm talent and potential, relative to Hoyer.

patman52 said:

I would prefer to get someone like those three also, but those guys don't cost 2mill a year. Brisset got 15, Bridewater got 21M, Fitz and Taylor got 6mill. While we have no money under the cap, it is a lot easier to free up 2 mill than 6mil.

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Yeah guys lik that have a price tag to them but when it comes to backup quarterbacks, you get what you pay for. I can understand going cheap on the QB2 if you don't think your QB 1 will be on the field for 16 games other than a bit of garbage time. I have no idea why Belichick seems so confident that's going to be the case with Stidham, but I think that overconfidence may go down in history as one of his rare mistakes. He's had consistency at QB for so long I honestly think Belichick might be caught flat footed underestimating how hard it is for a new QB to handle a 16 game schedule.

Simpelton said:

Yeah guys lik that have a price tag to them but when it comes to backup quarterbacks, you get what you pay for. I can understand going cheap on the QB2 if you don't think your QB 1 will be on the field for 16 games other than a bit of garbage time. I have no idea why Belichick seems so confident that's going to be the case with Stidham, but I think that overconfidence may go down in history as one of his rare mistakes. He's had consistency at QB for so long I honestly think Belichick might be caught flat footed underestimating how hard it is for a new QB to handle a 16 game schedule.

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If Stidham is a top 20 quarterback, then great. Otherwise, we'll get another mid-rounder next year, and in 2022, until Belichick beat the odds or chooses to pay (high pick or cap money) for talent. We trust in belichick. We are simply wrong in thinking that it is a to have 2 competitors for our #1 QB and our #2 QB for the next three years.
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Repeat 10 times
Belichick is the genius, so Stidham will be a top QB.
If Stidham is injured this year, we have Hoyer.
If Stidham is injured next year, we'll have our PS QB our late round pick to step in like Cassel.
======
then, go on line and look for deal on land in the Everglades.

mgteich said:

If Stidham is a top 20 quarterback, then great. Otherwise, we'll get another mid-rounder next year, and in 2022, until Belichick beat the odds or chooses to pay (high pick or cap money) for talent. We trust in belichick. We are simply wrong in thinking that it is a to have 2 competitors for our #1 QB and our #2 QB for the next three years.
======
Repeat 10 times
Belichick is the genius, so Stidham will be a top QB.
If Stidham is injured this year, we have Hoyer.
If Stidham is injured next year, we'll have our PS QB our late round pick to step in like Cassel.
======
then, go on line and look for deal on land in the Everglades.

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I'll say it again I badly wanted us to draft Drew Lock denver did and Elway thinks he's the second coming I wanted Stidham as my second QB we got him in fourth.
Lock has shown he can play well against NFL starters Stidham has shown he can play well against future roofers and warehouse workers.
Stidham could play well against top NFL talent we have no idea.
I was on record for wanting Mariota to compete against Stidham Las Vegas paid Mariota stupid money borderline starting QB money.
We wouldn't do that and we have no cap.
People think Newton will play for peanuts.
People think we are interested in Newton when Stidham has a full year in the system and we liked him enough to release Hoyer and risk losing him which happened.
If Stidham is not a starting QB we made a horrible decision passing on Lock.
If Stidham is a franchise QB and is as good or better than Lock BB is either lucky with QBs amazing at developing them.
Or a mad genius for waiting til the fourth round.

Maybe...
But i wouldn't expect anything other than maybe a camp body that could push Hoyer at this point. If the Dolphins only want a 7th for him the Pats could do much worse.

Simpelton said:

He's had consistency at QB for so long I honestly think Belichick might be caught flat footed underestimating how hard it is for a new QB to handle a 16 game schedule.

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And yet three times in the last eleven years, Belichick was willing to have a rookie QB with zero starts as Brady's only backup, with not even a PS QB at the time.

DW Toys said:

IMO Cousins there are three Dark Horses I will mention at the end and neither are Brisset... I am honest when I say I am NOT a Newton Fan, but who gives us a better chance to win....Newton or Stidham?

As example #1. if I consume the Patriots Koolaid, you choose the player who gives you the best chance to win. That is unless Stidham is your choice.

If I am GM I am seeing if Newton will sign a Teddy deal for a year. Why? You still have to have the other Team game plan for Newton. A four man rush and safeties in the box will beat Stidham. My comparison is Mason Rudolph.

I have watched his film. Stidham did NOT play at a high level at Auburn. Rosen would definitely be the better "definite maybe" if he is to be considered. Look at the two Teams Rosen played for. He was sacked 48 times in AZ and 16 times in Miami in only 6 games. I am not really a Rosen Fan but if I am Josh and want to mold clay to build a QB. Rosen is the better choice to start with more skills to feature. Is Rosen a late bloomer?
Here is the one problem I see. Stidham might have more charisma to lead over Rosen. Give him that point.

Now go to example #2 Hoyer and ??????. I'd go with ????? Hoyer is a very good back up for a few quarters........only....again IMO.

DARK HORSE #1
Trubisky in a trade. Fowles is Nagy's man form past Teams. Trubiski had some serious decent numbers in 2018 and led the Bears to a playoff. He is only 25. He played through a hip injury all last year. He is still on his rookie contract so cheap investment in a "one year and we'll see" deal.

DARK HORSE #2
Carr in a trade. He is not a Gruden favorite and they picked up Mariota. He was from the last regime. Remember Gruden has made bold trades if you are not one of his guys like Mack. Carrs stats are pretty good. He had a better season in 2019. Was rated better than Brady. Still young and with what Stidham does not have...experience.

DARK HORSE #3
Stafford in a trade. He is a real good QB on a bad team for years that has allowed him to get beat up. He has great arm and intelligence to run our system. He has many good years left if we can protect him (32). The good news is that trading Stafford can actually save Matty P's job. They picked up Chase Daniel as a backup. He is actually a 70% completion passer. A little bit better Hoyer. He signed a 3 year 13 mIllion dollar contract with the Bears. Inexpensive but experienced. Now with my Quinn GM hat on. Daniels can hand the ball of as good as Stafford can. He is more durable. With the addition of Swift plus Kenyon Johnson and a beefed-up D, Matty P is playing Run and Defense. They have some solid TE's as well. A 2021 Patriots first-rounder could bring the Lions a second 1st round pick in 2021 they can build on 2020. Yep I am trading a 1st for Stafford. A big $ hit is the problem.

All of these three have had some good NFL tape. Stidham not so much.

Let me ask you a question Cousins....If your life depended on which QB would give you the most wins, would it be Stidham? If so, what flavor did you drink?

P.S. I hope I am wrong.
DW Toys

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I don't think it's possible to make a choice until we know what we have with Stidham.

If I had to pick between the 3 dark horses, I'd go with Trubisky because he's more mobile.

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:

When Rosen is cut and is a street FA, the only downside I'd see to signing him for low $$$ is making the choice between a)having a 3rd QB on the 53 man roster; or b) cutting Hoyer after he lost out to Rosen, under he assumption that Hoyer's system familiarity will help the starter by being a steadying voice in the QB room. The upside is unquestionably an upgrade in arm talent and potential, relative to Hoyer.

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Why would Rosen sign with a team that has no salary cap space on sept 10th. And what good does that do the pats that don't have him for training camp. Do you think the dolphins who have 30mill of cap space are concerned about him getting hurt in TC and them being on the hook for 2mill? If you think there is any benefit this year or next to have him on the roster you trade for him.