"New England’s secondary is the place where passes go to die against man coverage."

patriot1136 said:

Who can fill Harmon's role?

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Harmon and Ebner are gone, they replaced them with Adrian Phillips, Cody Davis and Kyle Dugger. Lateral move at worst, potential upgrade...

Wozzy said:

The Patriots offense wasn't good. They ranked 17th in points per drive, their red zone offense was atrocious. If the offense controls the time of possession or simply scores with better efficiency they beat better teams. Complementary football...

The Patriots defense conversely was ranked #1. Everyone wants to hem and haw about the rushing yards they allowed... if the offense could have scored worth a damn they could have played with a lead forcing opponents to abandon the run.

The defense was the best in the NFL, the offense was around 17th best or worst. Often they were only in games because the defense forced so many turnovers and prevented points.

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The Patriots QB had a 79 passer rating over the last 9 games of the season. That is absolute garbage. Hopefully it won’t be hard to improve on that or we are in trouble. We also need to be healthier up front.

Wozzy said:

Harmon and Ebner are gone, they replaced them with Adrian Phillips, Cody Davis and Kyle Dugger. Lateral move at worst, potential upgrade...

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Davis is the STO replacement for STO Ebner. Neither should be considered as safeties, just as special teamers.
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With regard to Harmon, we have added Phillips (the likely direct comparison) and Duggar, who is more likely to take some of Chung's reps.

We also have Brooks is we choose to keep a 5th position safety, or he might beat out Phillips. Finally, many have suggested that Williams could play some safety if that is necessary. If Deven is injured, it is not clear who would be able to play centerfield in the Cover 1. It could be Williams; it could be his brother. Or, we might have to play a lot less over 1.

We are fussing over who replaces Harmon, who role was his very late in the game interceptions. IMO, the more critical question is the backup for McCourty.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Not to bash Jackson, who is obviously a very talented guy, but I get the sense two major factors weren’t put into this “rating”.

1. Number of penalties against, which Jackson has been notably bad at picking up. His aggressiveness, especially on deep passes, has cost the team a lot of penalty yards.

2. Gilmore’s special ability to Revis out a star receiver gives Jackson much more favorable matchups.

In all, glad Jackson and McCourty are getting some more recognition, as they are both really good coverage corners. To put them at 1-2 ahead of truly elite CBs, and especially ahead of Gilmore himself, makes this a laughable list. If Jackson and McCourty were both top 15, that would be incredibly impressive in itself...having them 1, 2, and 3 screams of unnecessary absurdity.

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Agree completely. Gilmore is the best CB in football.

Wozzy said:

The Patriots offense wasn't good. They ranked 17th in points per drive, their red zone offense was atrocious. If the offense controls the time of possession or simply scores with better efficiency they beat better teams. Complementary football...

The Patriots defense conversely was ranked #1. Everyone wants to hem and haw about the rushing yards they allowed... if the offense could have scored worth a damn they could have played with a lead forcing opponents to abandon the run.

The defense was the best in the NFL, the offense was around 17th best or worst. Often they were only in games because the defense forced so many turnovers and prevented points.

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Stidham is the QB.

So when he performs poorly we will blame him if the pass defense isn't stellar.

I recall a 2000 Ravens defense where it did not matter if the QB played poorly and made errors. In fact, Brian Billick told Trent Dilfer not to worry if he made mistakes because the Baltimore defense would take care of business.

The first 8 games of 2019 the Pats defense looked like one of the great defenses. The last 8 games told the truth. Ryan Fitzpatrick looked like stud when the Dolphins rolled into NE in the month of Decembet and punched the Pats defense upside the head.

I'm holding off on buying into the notion that NE is the best NFL pass defense until they prove it against post season contenders.

Triumph said:

...

I'm holding off on buying into the notion that NE is the best NFL pass defense until they prove it against post season contenders.

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Not allowing a TD in Super Bowl LIII, against an all time top offense, isn’t enough for you eh?

We gotta lock J.C. up long term

Triumph said:

The article is flawed because it is based off the 2019 season where NE faced terrible QBs and passing offenses.

This is the same as the heavyweight fighter who is undefeated in 20 fights. Wow, he must be the real deal. Problem is that all his fights were vs stiffs who were not any good.

The 2019 Pats first 8 games were vs the biggest stiffs in the league.

1 PITT 30th passing
2 MIA 25th
3 NYJ 32nd
4 BUFF 23rd
5 WASH 29th
6 NYG 26th
7 NYJ 32nd
8 CLE 21st

The only teams that did not have controversy at QB were BUFF and CLE. PITT would have been a better passing offense with Ben, but the Steelers still had issues at WR because JuJu Smith did not fair so well as the #1 WR in the absence of AB.

JuJu

2018- 1426 yards 7 TDs
2019- 552 yards 3 TDs

I am going wait until this NE defense and secondary shuts down a high octane passing team like KC before popping the champagne cork.

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But what happened during the 2018 season (after the PIT game)? Shut-DOWN! (Excuse the 2nd half of the KC AFCCG; a few bad calls as well).

Triumph said:

Stidham is the QB.

So when he performs poorly we will blame him if the pass defense isn't stellar.

I recall a 2000 Ravens defense where it did not matter if the QB played poorly and made errors. In fact, Brian Billick told Trent Dilfer not to worry if he made mistakes because the Baltimore defense would take care of business.

The first 8 games of 2019 the Pats defense looked like one of the great defenses. The last 8 games told the truth. Ryan Fitzpatrick looked like stud when the Dolphins rolled into NE in the month of Decembet and punched the Pats defense upside the head.

I'm holding off on buying into the notion that NE is the best NFL pass defense until they prove it against post season contenders.

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Not sure what the 2000 Ravens has to do with the conversation, or you pointing to the QB as the sole reason for offense, but those Ravens had one of the best rushing attacks in the league... the 2019 Patriots didn't.

Moreover I don't understand why people dispute the notion of "complementary football." It's actually a thing. Offense, defense and special teams don't happen in a vacuum.

The Dolphins game last year was the outlier to the season, also I think it was a coaching error not a performance error. They were dropping back into zones assuming Fitzpatrick would make mistakes, he didn't. They underestimated the Dolphins and their desire to end the season on a strong note.

The Patriots D was ranked #1 in fewest points allowed, fewest points per drive, scoring %, yards, defensive TD's scored, they gave up the fewest 1st downs, were second in forced turnovers, led the league in INT's, were 6th in sacks and blitz percentage...

If they were overrated, it was in relation to themselves. They were in consideration for all-time great defense's before they came back to Earth.

They were still the best defense in the NFL in 2019.

Both the Cleveland and Baltimore games exposed the Patriots bad run defense which teams with decent running games exploited over the 2nd half of the season. Play action off this was effective and hurt the Pats pass D significantly.

Injuries to J. McCourty and Jonathan Jones really hurt the cause in the Miami game. It left them with only 3 corners including JoeJuan Williams who was a S trying to play corner and none of them had much experience playing in the slot. This forced the Pats to play a lot more zone than usual which Ryan Fitzpatrick and the Dolphin receivers just ate up.

We debate things endlessly on this forum, and, often, the matters discussed seem trivial. But, little things matter. If Belichick had kept Mike Pennel and Michel Bennett rather than siding with his poor hire of Bret Bielma as DL coach, the run D would have been fixable if had ever become a problem in the first place. And, if Belichick had just kept Keion Crossen as a gunner and back up slot corner rather than adding Justin Bethel, the Patriots might have won the Dolphins game, earned the bye, and who knows with a functioning run D might have gone on a deep playoff run even with their struggling offense.

This is my hope for the 202o season. That an elite pass defense equipped with personnel to stop opponent’s running attacks when needed can offset the struggles of an offense led by a young, unestablished QB.

Kenneth Sims said:

Both the Cleveland and Baltimore games exposed the Patriots bad run defense which teams with decent running games exploited over the 2nd half of the season. Play action off this was effective and hurt the Pats pass D significantly.

Injuries to J. McCourty and Jonathan Jones really hurt the cause in the Miami game. It left them with only 3 corners including JoeJuan Williams who was a S trying to play corner and none of them had much experience playing in the slot. This forced the Pats to play a lot more zone than usual which Ryan Fitzpatrick and the Dolphin receivers just ate up.

We debate things endlessly on this forum, and, often, the matters discussed seem trivial. But, little things matter. If Belichick had kept Mike Pennel and Michel Bennett rather than siding with his poor hire of Bret Bielma as DL coach, the run D would have been fixable if had ever become a problem in the first place. And, if Belichick had just kept Keion Crossen as a gunner and back up slot corner rather than adding Justin Bethel, the Patriots might have won the Dolphins game, earned the bye, and who knows with a functioning run D might have gone on a deep playoff run even with their struggling offense.

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You could also argue that every odd-numbered season in the 2010s was derailed by injuries.

Triumph said:

Its a wash.

Kelce fumbled in FG range and lost the ball.

Gilmore was lockdown allowing 33% completed.
Jackson allowed 66% completed.
J Mcourty played 4 snaps.

NE got burned by Hardman for a 48 yard bomb.
Kelce caught 7 of 9 for 77% and 66 yards
Hill caught 6 of 8 for 75% and 62 yards
Watkins had 50 yards.

Mahomes completed 65% of his throws and KC had the ball 34 minutes.

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It’s not a wash. Kelces fumble was called incorrectly and Harry’s oob’s play was a travesty. Thats a big point swing. Only 1 team allowed under 23 points to the Chiefs and that was the Colts. Without checking, not even sure if Mahomes played in that game.

It almost reads like your disappointed in the effort/results which was one of the best games played against the Chiefs last year.

Pats had a terrific defense in 2019 and it was clearly led by the secondary. They obviously benefited from playing some weak offenses just like every other team does. (check out the 2000 Ravens schedule if you want to see some weak offensive opponents) Pats schedule was back loaded with the harder teams and their numbers dropped accordingly. They did not end up as an all time defense but I'd happily sign up for a repeat in 2020.

Nikolai said:

Pretty cool to see Jackson getting more love. He's not just a beneficiary of being in this secondary. He's one of the reasons it's elite.

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JC Jackson would be a CB1 on 15 teams right now. He's really, really good and I like that he takes some risks even if it means some flags come his way.

JC is still somewhat raw but he'll learn the fine art of coverage from the best in the world and in the meantime I love the fact that he's fast, tenacious, aggressive, and puts himself in position to make plays.

TheRainMaker said:

As a group, this is the best secondary in Pats history.

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Steve Belichick is doing a fantastic job getting good results out of the talent we've amassed at the position too. You can have all the talent in the world but if the coaching isn't there you won't have a ton to show for it. Steve Belichick is really starting to hit his stride as an NFL unit coach.

Any list that puts Jason McCourty above Stephon Gilmore is just flat out wrong.

If McCourty was really better why did he only garner a 2/$10m contract?