4th and 15 to replace onside kick - vote today

sb1 said:

Right but the defense was already kinda lousy in 08. That’s why I don’t buy the talk that they were 16-0 if Brady was healthy.

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PATSYLICIOUS said:

agreed, the offense would’ve still been great but that secondary was garbage after asante left, huge difference between 07 and 08. We had ellis hobbs as our #1 cb and the rest of the cbs were jags. Rodney got hurt early, that left Merriweather and Eugene Wilson at safety? Probably even worse than the 2011 secondary.

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Yeah the 2008 defense wasn't as good as the 2007 one because of the departures of A$ante Samuel, Randall Gay & Geno Wilson, but they still had all of the Front-7 guys returning for '08...The '09 defense just plain sucked however, especially the LBs & DBs...

captain stone said:

Yeah the 2008 defense wasn't as good as the 2007 one because of the departures of A$ante Samuel, Randall Gay & Geno Wilson, but they still had all of the Front-7 guys returning for '08...The '09 defense just plain sucked however, especially the LBs & DBs...

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True. I think the 08 defense actually wasn't much better than 09. They actually allowed 29 points a game to teams that made the playoffs in the AFC. They were top 10 in scoring only because the rest of the schedule against non playoff teams was just as easy as the first half schedule we had this past season. No way they go 16-0 in 2008 with a defense like that.

PATSYLICIOUS said:

agreed, the offense would’ve still been great but that secondary was garbage after asante left, huge difference between 07 and 08. We had ellis hobbs as our #1 cb and the rest of the cbs were jags. Rodney got hurt early, that left merriweather and eugene Wilson at safety? Probably even worse than the 2011 secondary.

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Deltha O'Neal and Sanders.

sb1 said:

Deltha O'Neal and Sanders.

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couldn’t remember if deltha was this year or 05. So now I remember, and duane starks was the washed up garbage cb in 05 lol

captain stone said:

Yeah the 2008 defense wasn't as good as the 2007 one because of the departures of A$ante Samuel, Randall Gay & Geno Wilson, but they still had all of the Front-7 guys returning for '08...The '09 defense just plain sucked however, especially the LBs & DBs...

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thats a close one, tgey were both pretty bad. The 08 version played a cupcake schedule tho

Brandon_Cox said:

Just spitballing here. There's 5 seconds left in the game, you score a touchdown and are up by 4. You've got a monster punter with toms of hang time. You don't want to kick off and defend all those laterals. Can you take the 4th and 15 and punt? Maybe I missed it, but it doesn't seem that is prevented. You force the other team to fair catch it at their 30 with no chance of the laterals. I'm not sure the clock would be running but you've got the other team backed up, and now you've got your defense on the field, ready to go, (without hopefully your tight end on the field playing defense).

I realize this is all kind of preposterous (I'm still isolating at home and bored). But is it against the rules?

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part 8 of the rule states no scrimmage kicks. so no punts.

Triumph said:

They are destroying the game.

Successful onside kicks are one of the most exciting plays in football.

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Sorry Tri, but they already destroyed this part of the game (in the interest of "safety"). Prior to all the rules changes to the KO part of the game that limited any chance of an onside kick being recovered (0-134) in recent years, onside kicks were recovered by the kicking team about 13% of the time. This was about right for what should be a high risk reward play.

From what I hear the 4th and 15 odds would be about at 16% success rate. (FYI - 4th and 17 would come in at about the old 13 percent range)

Some say it would be unfair to a team whose defense has worked all game to get that advantage. Some say that with today's passing offenses and empty backfield sets the success percentage would be even higher that what is being predicted.

Personally I'd like to see the league go back to the the 2000 kick off rules and do it that way. One of the reasons Bill has had so much success over the last 20 years was his dedication to the kicking game and his teams consistently being better than other teams in that area. In there never ending quest to dumb down the game the NFL idiots have (for the last 5 years) have implemented rules that have made the kicking game (outside of FG's) less and less important to the detriment of the game IMHO. But it will help neutralized some of Bill's advantages.

But given we are realistically going back to the 2000 kicking game rules, I'm all for the 4th and 15 option strictly for it's entertainment value. No one can doubt that it WOULD be an exciting play.

Calhoun44 said:

It looks like someone could get a touchdown off of this play too. The defense has to defend the whole field like a regular play. It seems like they should make it like a long 2 pt. conversion try from the 15 yd. line so the defense has less field to cover. If the offense converts the "try" they get the ball on their own 40 yd. line. This proposal being considered is very favorable to the offense as written.

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That actually makes sense. I like this addendum to the new proposal

XFL type of rule. Terrible idea. McCourty was right, it’s a reward for losing.

DropKickFlutie said:

I can't think of the last time I saw a successful NFL onside kick.

The only major flaw I see here is refs messing it all up with pass interference flags. They should unofficially put the flags away and let players duke it out.

One second minor point is what happens if a player breaks free, do they get a touchdown or do they just get the ball back? If it's just to get the ball back then maybe do it like a 2-point conversion, they have 4th and goal but at the 15 yard line and have to get into the endzone.

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I think they should treat it like a 2-point conversion, but place the ball on the 15. So for example...

1) Offensive team scores a FG or TD but still trails late. They elect to go for maintaining possession for another drive.

2) Place the ball on the 15 yard line. No need for everyone to walk 60 yards to the other end of the field. (At least not yet)

3) Play like a 2-point conversion. If the offense gets into the end zone, they get the ball at their own 35 yard line. If the defense stops them, they get the ball at the offensive team's 35 yard line.

4) A defensive penalty, if accepted, results in the ball being re-spotted, but doesn't give an automatic first down or successful try. So defensive holding puts the ball on the 10, but you still have to retry. PI would be a spot foul (or place ball at 1 if it takes place in the end zone), but you retry. So we don't have to worry about the offensive team getting a cheap first down via penalty.

Triumph said:

They are destroying the game.

Successful onside kicks are one of the most exciting plays in football.

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They made them too difficult this past season. They should revert to how they were previously (still difficult yet exciting).