Gronk trade completed

Run DMC said:

Asante speaks!
Asante Samuel says Belichick needed Brady, Brady doesn't need Belichick - ProFootballTalk
“I think Bill Belichick needed Tom to be successful. Do you think Tom needs Bill??? My answer is No,”
“Bill is known to be a defensive specialist. How many times did he have a top 5 defense and did they/we win the Super Bowl? Tom has always carried the team in his back with limited weapons. Josh McDaniel is the one who really raised Brady,”

I'm sure forum homers will now commence to bash Asante rather than let the truth soak in.

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Eh. This whole "who needs who" is definitely difficult to quantify but you are doing nothing to even try to quantify what that looks like.

First off, if Brady has more wins than Belichick this season, it's not immediately reflective of that point. Hell, if they match W/L's, that's a failure on Brady's part.

I said it right when the season ended and will say it again:

Belichick, given the circumstances, is in for what is the most difficult year of his career here with the Patriots. He not only lost Brady, but a lot of other crucial pieces left as well. Belichick is facing the dreaded rebuild years, right when the East has an emerging Buffalo, and who knows what the Dolphins will look like this year.

Honestly? I don't think we can ever truly know. If Brady only has two years left? And Belichick spends the next two years building up his next roster/QB? It's two completely different scenarios.

Brady is going to a new system, but with a fcukload of amazing weapons. Belichick has absolutely nothing - hell, that's why Brady left!

In a world where Brady didn't have Belichick, and Belichick didn't have Brady, I think you'd see both get an SB title or two, maybe make it there 3/4 times each. Still amazing legacies. It's just them together was borderline unfair.

We can't immediately discard every single testimony of past players, both Patriots or those looking from the outside, who said Belichick is a genius. We can certainly take Samuel's word for some merit, but you gotta take the overwhelming amount of praise, too.

jefmblrd said:

It’s clear that BB was prepared to move forward without Gronk when he negotiated a trade with the Lions a few years back, and I’ve always had the sense that he wanted to move on from Brady and keep Jimmy G. BB has always been one to try and stay ahead of the curve, and I believe he had a plan in place to do just that, but it didn’t come to fruition as he had planned for some reason that we don’t know. Did Kraft step in? We won’t know until that information surfaces at some later date.

Brady and Gronk did amazing, unprecedented things here, and the relationship has run its course, so it’s time for all parties to regroup and move forward.

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what gets me is if he was prepared why in the world do we have TE’s that belong in the XFL

PatsBoy12 said:

Please explain how Brady "has noticeably declined" without mentioning the lack of competent receiving options he had last season. I'll wait.

Note, I'm not saying he hasn't declined somewhat. That's just realistic. But noticeably? I'm not so sure anyone can say that without taking into account what's happened at receiver the past two seasons.

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By noticeably he means Brady doesn’t play here no more so I’ll hate on him now. Just like the clowns who are now saying Brady was part system QB but didn’t say that dumb **** when there were Brady vs Manning debates

Bradybranch said:

Since when does Buffalo own the division? Josh Allen will continue to hold that team back.

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I meant will own the division, that team went to the playoffs and yes Allen isn’t all that but he’s going into his third year. Singletary is the truth and won’t have carries taken away by Gore and they just added a true WR1

MainePatsFan26 said:

There are two major problems with this argument.

One, that there will be a season. Georgia reopening despite having the third highest number of new cases means that we'll probably have a second wave of the outbreak well into the summer. That may delay or cause the NFL season to be cancelled.

Two, you are assuming Gronk will be the Gronk of yore. There is a genuine debate worth having over whether Brady will return to form or continue his decline. With Gronk, even if he has a renaissance he hasn't been practicing in a year. How can a player at this level just sit around for a year without significant rust developing? If Gronk plays multiple more years, I could see him returning to his peak level. It is a big ask, though, for him to be a major factor across the year.

My guess is that Tampa is one of the biggest disappointments if we do have a season. They are like the Browns this past year: all the press and shiny objects pointed to a great season, but when you removed all the glitz you were confronted by the fact they were still the Browns. The same culture problem will likely be an issue in Tampa though to a lesser degree. Arians is a solid coach but has too big an ego. Tom and Gronk both have big egos and may be thinking they can achieve the same success as in New England without the grind imposed by Belichick. And what of the other players not accustomed to being barked at? I just don't see easy success for the Bucs because it takes team-wide resolve to win, not the lone play of a couple guys.

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They won games with there QB putting up historic turnover numbers there not the browns especially when you look at Baker v Brady

carmelo15 said:

I meant will own the division, that team went to the playoffs and yes Allen isn’t all that but he’s going into his third year. Singletary is the truth and won’t have carries taken away by Gore and they just added a true WR1

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"Allen is going into his third year?" I'm not even sure what this means even sure what this means. Trubisky was going into his third year prior to last season (and had a better second year than Allen) and that didn't work out so swimmingly for Mitch or the Bears. Bills OL protected him fairly well last year and he still couldn't crack the 60% completion percentage threshold. He has a superstar body and arm but the accuracy of one of the muskets that is fired after a Pats TD. He was also in the top 5 for fumbles by quarterback last year. Let's see the Bills win the division once before we make any predictions about them "owning" the division. How did it work out for Diggs' last team, with superior skill position players than the Bills will have next year?

PatsFanInVa said:

cap hell would not be hyphenated in this usage -- yer killin' me here

I gotta say, it's been a nice 20 years, so... not to butt in on an ongoing spat, but... I'm kind of okay with a down season or two, especially since 2020 is unlikely to be played, at least not with fans in the stands (and if fans aren't there, are players really going to roll those dice?)

In terms of whether you can play to empty houses, it'll be a matter of accuracy of player testing. And that's if there's no shortage of tests for the general populace, because by then, the optics of weekly tests of the rich to play a game for a living might just not be the best optics.



Arguing w/13 I'm guessing. I think I had to haul out old Scar about 20 times back in the day.

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If the 2020 season isn't played, the result will strongly affect the ongoing Belichick v. Brady narrative. No season and Tom comes back a year older. How good will a 44 year old be at shaking off the rust? Gronk? He will have been out of the league for two years. I can't recall a retirement that long where the player came back and played anywhere near his former level. But for Belichick, this gives him two years for a rebuild. He gets two drafts to restock the team without having to go through a potentially losing season. In 2021 he emerges from cap hell and can sign a significant free agent or two. If Belichick's picks in the two drafts are solid, the Pats could emerge in the 2021 season back in their usual place atop the East and contending for the Super Bowl. If that happens, Goodell will be investigating rumors that the Covid-19 pandemic was engineered by BB just to facilitate the post-Brady transition and a two year rebuild.

patfanken said:

No offense to you, Caretaker, but exactly how 'brutal" was our WR and TE corps when they managed, (despite all the injuries at the position) to help Brady throw for over 4,000 yds for the 10th time in his career. BTW the Pats ranked 8th in the league in passing yds

I don't mean to say that last year's WR group was ideal. I understand that for several reasons they weren't as good as we've had in our run of 4 superbowl appearances in 6 years. But BRUTAL? I don't think so. There are 24 Teams that didn't have as many passing yds.

And yes I know that what we had, had Tom Brady throwing them the ball. Just remember that we somehow managed to throw for 4000 yds DESPITE the fact there was no Gronk, (and his replacement play injured all year) the loss of Harry for half the year, they fact that Sanu AND Edelman had injuries that affected their play for large portions of the year.

AND for those who look at our WR corps and think NOW is the time for the Pats to fall off the map, just think about this stat. The team who was the #1 seed in the AFC ,threw for over 1,000 yds LESS than the hapless Patriots. How good you are at throwing the ball is not the ONLY way to win football games.

Just a thought

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I admit, "brutal" is too strong of a word. "Frustrating" is more fitting though. We've had high hopes in Aug/Sep since it looked we're loaded at WR; and it took just a few weeks to find us without Flash, Brown and Demaryius Thomas. Then a long wait for Harry to heal, for Sanu to adjust, for Gronk to come back and so on. Many disappointing narratives really.

Of course throwing the ball to WR is not the only way, but last season we still had Brady. So I wanted the Pats to provide a good O-line and fetch him some top talent... Now that ship has sailed and we just need to be open minded.

NormZauchin said:

... In 2021 he emerges from cap hell and can sign a significant free agent or two. If Belichick's picks in the two drafts are solid, the Pats could emerge in the 2021 season back in their usual place atop the East and contending for the Super Bowl.

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Maybe. That raises an interesting question. If there is no season, what happens to player contracts. Do the owners just happily pay millions of dollars to guys who are sitting around? Or do they try to treat it like a retired/hold out scenario in which the contracts toll? If the latter, then they /wouldn't/ be out of cap hell in 21.

Jesus people, some aren't taking this too gracefully. Brady and BB - goats at their jobs. Gronk may have been ready for a change of environment, so be it.

Bottom line, those three all helped deliver here. Two are gone, but they're legends. You don't have to cheer them on since they don't wear the laundry anymore but you don't need to turn into animals. BRADY OR BELICHICK, GRONK WAS A LIAR, Jesus. Need a narrative to turn on these guys and eachother?

I'm gonna love all three, but still be upset right now the day finally came, and just get through this current situation... over time.

Bradys a goat, BB is a goat, gronk is a HOF. I support all three, they made this team great. Take your hands off eachothers throats.

Vindicate said:

Eh. This whole "who needs who" is definitely difficult to quantify but you are doing nothing to even try to quantify what that looks like.

First off, if Brady has more wins than Belichick this season, it's not immediately reflective of that point. Hell, if they match W/L's, that's a failure on Brady's part.

I said it right when the season ended and will say it again:

Belichick, given the circumstances, is in for what is the most difficult year of his career here with the Patriots. He not only lost Brady, but a lot of other crucial pieces left as well. Belichick is facing the dreaded rebuild years, right when the East has an emerging Buffalo, and who knows what the Dolphins will look like this year.

Honestly? I don't think we can ever truly know. If Brady only has two years left? And Belichick spends the next two years building up his next roster/QB? It's two completely different scenarios.

Brady is going to a new system, but with a fcukload of amazing weapons. Belichick has absolutely nothing - hell, that's why Brady left!

In a world where Brady didn't have Belichick, and Belichick didn't have Brady, I think you'd see both get an SB title or two, maybe make it there 3/4 times each. Still amazing legacies. It's just them together was borderline unfair.

We can't immediately discard every single testimony of past players, both Patriots or those looking from the outside, who said Belichick is a genius. We can certainly take Samuel's word for some merit, but you gotta take the overwhelming amount of praise, too.

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A football genius like samuel knows that in football you need a good QB. Well done bro.

Coaching geniuses like the rest of the league know you need coaching too. You really know it when you dont have it. Haha

rochrist said:

Maybe. That raises an interesting question. If there is no season, what happens to player contracts. Do the owners just happily pay millions of dollars to guys who are sitting around? Or do they try to treat it like a retired/hold out scenario in which the contracts toll? If the latter, then they /wouldn't/ be out of cap hell in 21.

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Above all I doubt that there will be zero football this year. At worst they will figure out a way to play a televised shortened season behind closed doors.

But for the sake of argument lets assume it ends up really being impossible. I doubt that the league can just toll contracts. There is a CBA and whatever the rules set in there are will be followed: i.e. whatever is guaranteed they will have to pay out. On the other hand players will get screwed out of all incentives.

The interesting thing would just be how much of a hit the salary cap numbers would take in the next 3-4 years if there would be zero football this year. This could screw a lot of teams that have backloaded their deals.

Hammer of Thor said:

No, it would have been just like 2018. Gronk would have just stayed retired so he’d have no trade value.

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True.

TommyBrady12 said:

For Brady's sake, I hope the Tennessee game is not a sign of things to come. He was horrible - 209 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT. Maybe Bill realized Tom doesn't have it anymore.

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There is no question Bill thought Tom's play dropped a notch.

NormZauchin said:

If the 2020 season isn't played, the result will strongly affect the ongoing Belichick v. Brady narrative. No season and Tom comes back a year older. How good will a 44 year old be at shaking off the rust? Gronk? He will have been out of the league for two years. I can't recall a retirement that long where the player came back and played anywhere near his former level. But for Belichick, this gives him two years for a rebuild. He gets two drafts to restock the team without having to go through a potentially losing season. In 2021 he emerges from cap hell and can sign a significant free agent or two. If Belichick's picks in the two drafts are solid, the Pats could emerge in the 2021 season back in their usual place atop the East and contending for the Super Bowl. If that happens, Goodell will be investigating rumors that the Covid-19 pandemic was engineered by BB just to facilitate the post-Brady transition and a two year rebuild.

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It was BB's fault not Roger's because BB was generally aware of COVID-19, and more likely that not caused Kraft to influence POTUS to keep football closed, even though it was really the governors' fault that they couldn't play...

BradytoMosstoGronk said:

Jesus people, some aren't taking this too gracefully. Brady and BB - goats at their jobs. Gronk may have been ready for a change of environment, so be it.

Bottom line, those three all helped deliver here. Two are gone, but they're legends. You don't have to cheer them on since they don't wear the laundry anymore but you don't need to turn into animals. BRADY OR BELICHICK, GRONK WAS A LIAR, Jesus. Need a narrative to turn on these guys and eachother?

I'm gonna love all three, but still be upset right now the day finally came, and just get through this current situation... over time.

Bradys a goat, BB is a goat, gronk is a HOF. I support all three, they made this team great. Take your hands off eachothers throats.

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These dudes are just emotional drama queens in their daily lives as well, and it shows.

robertweathers said:

There is no question Bill thought Tom's play dropped a notch.

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Conceding halftime with a minute left in a tie game - a game the a Patriots needed to win to get a bye told me all I needed to know about what Bill thought of the Brady offense.

Vindicate said:

Eh. This whole "who needs who" is definitely difficult to quantify but you are doing nothing to even try to quantify what that looks like.

First off, if Brady has more wins than Belichick this season, it's not immediately reflective of that point. Hell, if they match W/L's, that's a failure on Brady's part.

I said it right when the season ended and will say it again:

Belichick, given the circumstances, is in for what is the most difficult year of his career here with the Patriots. He not only lost Brady, but a lot of other crucial pieces left as well. Belichick is facing the dreaded rebuild years, right when the East has an emerging Buffalo, and who knows what the Dolphins will look like this year.

Honestly? I don't think we can ever truly know. If Brady only has two years left? And Belichick spends the next two years building up his next roster/QB? It's two completely different scenarios.

Brady is going to a new system, but with a fcukload of amazing weapons. Belichick has absolutely nothing - hell, that's why Brady left!

In a world where Brady didn't have Belichick, and Belichick didn't have Brady, I think you'd see both get an SB title or two, maybe make it there 3/4 times each. Still amazing legacies. It's just them together was borderline unfair.

We can't immediately discard every single testimony of past players, both Patriots or those looking from the outside, who said Belichick is a genius. We can certainly take Samuel's word for some merit, but you gotta take the overwhelming amount of praise, too.

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I honestly think Asante Samuels is correct. BB needed Brady more than Brady needed BB and I am afraid we'll see proof positive this season as we struggle to 9-7 while Brady is 12-4 and in NFL MVP discussion.

BB wasn't winning ANY SBs with scrub QBs

Brady likely would have won some SBs with scrub HCs, I believe.

We have seen Peyton win with Kubiak, Roethelisberger with Tomlin and Rodgers win with McCarthy. And I don't rate those 3 HCs much at all.

The last HC to win with a scrub QB was Gruden with Brad Johnson. And maybe you can argue Harbaugh with Flacco although Flacco really caught fire that postseason and didn't play like a scrub, so not valid.

sb1 said:

Conceding halftime with a minute left in a tie game - a game the a Patriots needed to win to get a bye told me all I needed to know about what Bill thought of the Brady offense.

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No question.