article: Pats and Bengals only teams to not draft a Pro Bowler the last 6 years

archstanton543 said:

Those are two different people with different injury histories. Other than being elite TE talent, there's not much to compare the two. Gronk was clearly slowing down the last two years before he retired. The Pats knew the end was coming with Gronk sooner rather than later, did nothing other than bring in some veteran warm bodies to try to replace him and failed.

Comparing Kelce and Gonk pure on their age, skill level and position ignores way too many variables.

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That's not what I was doing. What I was saying is that you don't expect an historical talent to retire before his 30th birthday. Consider the Patriots acquired Randy Moss when he was older than Gronk was when he retired. You expect those blue chippers to last a long time, and Gronk's star burned out prematurely, which exacerbates the issue.

Is there a list of pro bowlers drafted during this 6 year period, and where they were taken in the draft? I wonder:

1. how many of those guys were available to the Pats, and
2. of those that were available, how many were late round long shots that nobody saw coming.

primetime said:

That's not what I was doing. What I was saying is that you don't expect an historical talent to retire before his 30th birthday. Consider the Patriots acquired Randy Moss when he was older than Gronk was when he retired. You expect those blue chippers to last a long time, and Gronk's star burned out prematurely, which exacerbates the issue.

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When Gronk got the contract extension in 2012 - at age 23, no less - everyone praised the deal because they already knew Gronk wasn't going to make it to age 30 in the NFL. No one expected Gronk to last for long. No one.

I post a question to those critical of recent drafts:

What is the difference between whiffing on a 1st round pick and nailing the mid-rounders/UDFAs, and nailing a 1st round pick but whiffing on the mid-rounders?

Look at 2015. Suppose we drafted Frank Clark at #32 instead of Malcolm Brown, but selected some forgettable jags in rounds 4 and 5 instead of Shaq Mason and Trey Flowers. Would it be a more successful draft?

We can pick nits over the random Duke Dawsons (signed JC Jackson as a UDFA the same year) or the 2017 draft class (weakest draft in a decade, and we used our pick to get a year of Brandon Cooks + Isaiah Wynn), but realistically, the collection of talent a team has, not the position they were drafted, defines the quality of a team.

And, if 7 - 9 is the ceiling of a team that is replacing the greatest QB of all time with a 4th round unknown, and has lost several significant defensive pieces, isn't that a sign that the team was well built?

Shockt327 said:

When Gronk got the contract extension in 2012 - at age 23, no less - everyone praised the deal because they already knew Gronk wasn't going to make it to age 30 in the NFL. No one expected Gronk to last for long. No one.

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This is a tremendously silly 20/20 hindsight claim.

stinkypete said:

What is the difference between whiffing on a 1st round pick and nailing the mid-rounders/UDFAs, and nailing a 1st round pick but whiffing on the mid-rounders?

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Answer:
Significant guaranteed money that consumes cap space
It also demonstrates significant organizational flaws... ie....scouting and/or player development

betterthanthealternative said:

Is there a list of pro bowlers drafted during this 6 year period, and where they were taken in the draft? I wonder:

1. how many of those guys were available to the Pats, and
2. of those that were available, how many were late round long shots that nobody saw coming.

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I did a minute’s worth of research on this and it is a fair point to consider. However, one thing that does stand out to me right now is that they passed on Lamar Jackson. Twice.

XLIX said:

I did a minute’s worth of research on this and it is a fair point to consider. However, one thing that does stand out to me right now is that they passed on Lamar Jackson. Twice.

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The funny thing about Lamar Jackson is that if we had drafted him, we'd know only slightly more about him as a starting QB right now as we currently do about Jarrett Stidham. Unless you think Belichick would have benched Brady in favor of him, he'd be a gimmick guy and we'd be asking if we're comfortable going with him.

slam said:

The funny thing about Lamar Jackson is that if we had drafted him, we'd know only slightly more about him as a starting QB right now as we currently do about Jarrett Stidham. Unless you think Belichick would have benched Brady in favor of him, he'd be a gimmick guy and we'd be asking if we're comfortable going with him.

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This is true, but 2021 would be a helluva year. I’d rather have Jackson right now than Stidham.

Who cares? The Pro Bowl is a beauty pageant, not an accurate gauge of how good/important a player is.

Lamar Jackson is dumb as a post and a short term solution.
Unless he evolves he will be broken down in a few years. See Cam Newton.

Just to beleaguer the point, there are 50 questions in the Wonderlic Exam....

Captain Cliche said:

Just to beleaguer the point, there are 50 questions in the Wonderlic Exam....

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Wonderlic scores are negatively correlated to the outcome of a player's career, so you actually do better taking a player with a lower Wonderlic score. This is really just noise - the Wonderlic doesn't matter and nobody pays attention to it other than sad armchair quarterbacks who want to feel superior to transcendent athletes making millions of dollars. Like you!

Not surprising. Belichick has been awful at drafting the past 5 years. Brady and our 2009-2012 draft classes have covered up all the mistakes

right now we have the least talented offense in the NFL and we are in cap hell. Brady is gone.

let’s see what you can do BB, I predict 5-11

primetime said:

Wonderlic scores are negatively correlated to the outcome of a player's career, so you actually do better taking a player with a lower Wonderlic score. This is really just noise - the Wonderlic doesn't matter and nobody pays attention to it other than sad armchair quarterbacks who want to feel superior to transcendent athletes making millions of dollars. Like you!

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I don't know if that's true. Being a QB and not being dumb is usually a good attribute. Unless you're Brett Favre with a rocket arm.

.

XLIX said:

I did a minute’s worth of research on this and it is a fair point to consider. However, one thing that does stand out to me right now is that they passed on Lamar Jackson. Twice.

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I hope you didn't post this to show us that you possess superior 20-20 hindsight.

UNLESS you were willing to dump Brady and their current offense after 3 CONSECUTIVE superbowl appearances, then the drafting of Lamar Jackson would have been a mistake. Jackson has proved (for one season) that he is very good at working with an unique offense designed around his particular skill set. There are many questions about how well he will do when teams catch up to that unique offense.

Definitely not one of your better efforts.

As to the OT. This was a better headline than good reporting. As people have already listed, the Pats have had several draft picks who have been better than some of those so called probowl picks. Being in 4 superbowls in 6 years has led to much of that headline.

Off the top of my head, Flowers, Thuney, Mason, and White have all been "pro bowl" worthy just on the basis of the contracts they've gotten because of their on field success

DropKickFlutie said:

I don't know if that's true. Being a QB and not being dumb is usually a good attribute. Unless you're Brett Favre with a rocket arm.

.

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Wonderlic tests don't measure how quickly you react or process in football, just like being good at Jeopardy or bar trivia doesn't make you a good accountant or whatever. It doesn't tell you anything other than how good you are taking Wonderlic tests.

Drafting hasn’t been great last few years, but they’ve brought in quality players in the draft and done a great job finding quality free agents cheap.

patfanken said:

I hope you didn't post this to show us that you possess superior 20-20 hindsight.

UNLESS you were willing to dump Brady and their current offense after 3 CONSECUTIVE superbowl appearances, then the drafting of Lamar Jackson would have been a mistake. Jackson has proved (for one season) that he is very good at working with an unique offense designed around his particular skill set. There are many questions about how well he will do when teams catch up to that unique offense.

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What you say makes no sense. There would have been nothing wrong with drafting a potential heir apparent in 2018. He'd be entering his 3rd year right now.

And no I am not employing 20/20 hindsight. I wanted the Patriots to draft him in 2018 if he slipped to them.

patfanken said:

Off the top of my head, Flowers, Thuney, Mason, and White have all been "pro bowl" worthy just on the basis of the contracts they've gotten because of their on field success

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There is no such stat as "pro bowl worthy".