QB vs HC

TheRainMaker · Mar 21, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt and Randy???

Yeah that would’ve been unfair.

BaconGrundleCandy · Mar 21, 2020

Joker said:
Talent>Scheme? I seem to remember a Super Bowl in 2001 that sorta destroys this statement on its' face.

And you think anyone can carry out that scheme? Just get any players and Bill will wave a wand? Without the right players to execute it you have no scheme.

BaconGrundleCandy · Mar 21, 2020

TheRainMaker said:
What if Carroll/Grier took Moss instead of Robert Edwards? Him and Glenn would’ve been awesome!

Lol I look at that draft class like once a week. Trust some of the names on there are mind numbing.

Yea we really drafted Robert Edwards in the 1st Rd.

Ice_Ice_Brady · Mar 21, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
Lol I look at that draft class like once a week. Trust some of the names on there are mind numbing.

Yea we really drafted Robert Edwards in the 1st Rd.

I’m not a draftnik at all, but that’s the only draft I remember pre-2000. I was in high school at the time. I remember it because every draft pundit said Randy Moss was the most talented receiver of all-time, and I was badly hoping the Patriots would draft him. Considering his physical gifts, it’s shocking that so many teams passes on him. The reward was worth the risk x 100.

Joker · Mar 21, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
And you think anyone can carry out that scheme? Just get any players and Bill will wave a wand? Without the right players to execute it you have no scheme.

this post is as ridiculous as any I've ever seen on these threads. The point is the Patriots, talentwise, were not even on the same planet as the greatest show on turf. I'm not getting into one of your "I'm always right!" excursions into narcissism. Continue with your back patting parade.

BaconGrundleCandy · Mar 21, 2020

Joker said:
this post is as ridiculous as any I've ever seen on these threads. The point is the Patriots, talentwise, were not even on the same planet as the greatest show on turf. I'm not getting into one of your "I'm always right!" excursions into narcissism. Continue with your back patting parade.

Its the NFL, talent is very evenly distributed. Go look at the rosters from both teams and type that again. People get googly for the Rams weapons but talent wasn't that lopsided at all. Esp when you look all 3 units.

Coaching and scheme absolutely matter. Especially when the talent is close across the board but you'll see you scheme play out if you don't have the right players.

This is football 101: Get your guys.

I understand why you answered the way did though. Its the kind of answer you give when you don't know what you're talking about. You like say you do but your post are as casual as it gets.

BaconGrundleCandy · Mar 21, 2020

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
I’m not a draftnik at all, but that’s the only draft I remember pre-2000. I was in high school at the time. I remember it because every draft pundit said Randy Moss was the most talented receiver of all-time, and I was badly hoping the Patriots would draft him. Considering his physical gifts, it’s shocking that so many teams passes on him. The reward was worth the risk x 100.

Detroit could've had Barry Sanders and Randy Moss.

Joker · Mar 21, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
Its the NFL, talent is very evenly distributed. Go look at the rosters from both teams and type that again. People get googly for the Rams weapons but talent wasn't that lopsided at all. Esp when you look all 3 units.

Coaching and scheme absolutely matter. Especially when the talent is close across the board but you'll see you scheme play out if you don't have the right players.

This is football 101: Get your guys.

I understand why you answered the way did though. Its the kind of answer you give when you don't know what you're talking about. You like say you do but your post are as casual as it gets.

...the talent was even across the board? You're an insane sub-moronic troll. You're blabbing like a cheap "beautiful queen" knockoff in an amateur Sleeping Beauty cartoon.There is no human being on the planet that thought Tom Brady was the EQUAL of Kurt Warner,the league MVP that year.Warner threw for 337 yards, Brady 134. There goes you premise, nitwit. That win was all about COACHING, only a mind numbingly self absorbed, overly argumentative MORON thinks otherwise.

captain insano · Mar 21, 2020

1960Pats said:
Now that the Pats let Brady walk I decided to do some research to see who has more of an impact on the field, the QB or the HC.

Below is the list of the last 20 SB's with the QB's and the HC's listed. The winners are on the left.

Mahomes/Garoppolo - Reid/Shanahan
Brady/Goff - BB/McVay
Foles/Brady - Pederson/BB
Brady/Ryan - BB/Quinn
P Manning/Newton - Kubiak/Rivera
Brady/Wilson - BB/Carroll
Wilson/P Manning - Carroll/Fox
Flacco/Kaepernick - Harbawl/Harbawl
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
Rodgers/Big Ben - McCarthy/Triplin
Brees/P Manning - Payton/Caldwell
Big Ben/Warner - Triplin/Whisenhunt
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
P Manning/Grossman - Dungy/Lovie Smith
Big Ben/Hasselbeck - Triplin/Holmgren
Brady/McNabb - BB/Reid
Brady/Delhomme - BB/Fox
Johnson/Gannon - Gruden/Callahan
Brady/Warner - BB/Martz
Dilfer/Collins - Billick/Fassel

Looking at that list I see many more average or below average HC's than I do average or below average QB's.

Bill Belichick has told us repeatedly that it's a players game and unless you believe he's blowing smoke up the players' arses with that comment, he's correct.

what about qbs who are 43 years old?

BaconGrundleCandy · Mar 21, 2020

Joker said:
...the talent was even across the board? You're an insane sub-moronic troll. You're blabbing like a cheap "beautiful queen" knockoff in an amateur Sleeping Beauty cartoon.There is no human being on the planet that thought Tom Brady was the EQUAL of Kurt Warner,the league MVP that year.Warner threw for 337 yards, Brady 134. There goes you premise, nitwit. That win was all about COACHING, only a mind numbingly self absorbed, overly argumentative MORON thinks otherwise.

Thought you didn't want to get caught up in an excursion?

Your post are awful. They reek of old man smell and old spice.

Obviously Warner was a lot farther ahead of Brady. You must have missed the part where I said look at the teams as a whole. Look at all 3 units.

Again though, football 101. You need your guys to execute that scheme. You can't just run anyone out there and expect it to work bc of scheme. It doesn't work that way.

Some players are better fits for different systems. Zone/Gap, Man, Press, Inverted etc and on and on.

You need the right players.

Joker · Mar 21, 2020

Look, make all the ageist bigot comments you want...THAT is the mark of a coward. I can see you're a gutless little puke all wrapped up in himself and that's OK, the rest of us are used to your ilk. COACHING won that Super Bowl. To argue "the players won that game!" is so ridiculous I have to ask, do you WATCH NFL football...or ANY football on any level? I'll make it simple so that even a profoundly ******ed, ageist bigot such as yourself can see it. As the game wound down,the announcers including John Madden(some guy who didn't know jack, right?) stated unequivocally that the Patriots should sit on the ball and wait for overtime. Belichick did what every so called "expert"(of which you aren't even an azz pimple on the butt of) said he shouldn't do and called for aggressive offensive plays designed to get the Pats in Vinatieri range. THAT was C-O-A-C-H-I-N-G. The players who were not even in the same breath ever going to be compared to Isaac Bruce,Az-Zahir Hakim, Torry Holt, Ricky Proehl, Marshall Faulk,Kurt Warner, Orlando Pace, and the rest of that Ram team, did their job. COACHING was the difference without question.Only a self-absorbed "always right!!!" narcissistic, pinbrained poser on a sports message board would ever have the temerity to even TRY to defend his ridiculous position.

skinnydog · Mar 21, 2020

1960Pats said:
Now that the Pats let Brady walk I decided to do some research to see who has more of an impact on the field, the QB or the HC.

Below is the list of the last 20 SB's with the QB's and the HC's listed. The winners are on the left.

Mahomes/Garoppolo - Reid/Shanahan
Brady/Goff - BB/McVay
Foles/Brady - Pederson/BB
Brady/Ryan - BB/Quinn
P Manning/Newton - Kubiak/Rivera
Brady/Wilson - BB/Carroll
Wilson/P Manning - Carroll/Fox
Flacco/Kaepernick - Harbawl/Harbawl
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
Rodgers/Big Ben - McCarthy/Triplin
Brees/P Manning - Payton/Caldwell
Big Ben/Warner - Triplin/Whisenhunt
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
P Manning/Grossman - Dungy/Lovie Smith
Big Ben/Hasselbeck - Triplin/Holmgren
Brady/McNabb - BB/Reid
Brady/Delhomme - BB/Fox
Johnson/Gannon - Gruden/Callahan
Brady/Warner - BB/Martz
Dilfer/Collins - Billick/Fassel

Looking at that list I see many more average or below average HC's than I do average or below average QB's.

Bill Belichick has told us repeatedly that it's a players game and unless you believe he's blowing smoke up the players' arses with that comment, he's correct.

Interesting, but I'm not sure what the point really is here. In football, as opposed to sports like basketball and baseball, it's really difficult for talented team with a lousy HC to win the SB, but even the best HC needs talent to win and usually that talent must include a top QB.

1960Pats · Mar 21, 2020

skinnydog said:
Interesting, but I'm not sure what the point really is here. In football, as opposed to sports like basketball and baseball, it's really difficult for talented team with a lousy HC to win the SB, but even the best HC needs talent to win and usually that talent must include a top QB.

My point is that the QB is more important than the HC.

The one that has me shaking my head is 2006, when QB Rex Grossman made it to the SB with HC Lovie Smith. How did that happen?

BaconGrundleCandy · Mar 21, 2020

Joker said:
Look, make all the ageist bigot comments you want...THAT is the mark of a coward. I can see you're a gutless little puke all wrapped up in himself and that's OK, the rest of us are used to your ilk. COACHING won that Super Bowl. To argue "the players won that game!" is so ridiculous I have to ask, do you WATCH NFL football...or ANY football on any level? I'll make it simple so that even a profoundly ******ed, ageist bigot such as yourself can see it. As the game wound down,the announcers including John Madden(some guy who didn't know jack, right?) stated unequivocally that the Patriots should sit on the ball and wait for overtime. Belichick did what every so called "expert"(of which you aren't even an azz pimple on the butt of) said he shouldn't do and called for aggressive offensive plays designed to get the Pats in Vinatieri range. THAT was C-O-A-C-H-I-N-G. The players who were not even in the same breath ever going to be compared to Isaac Bruce,Az-Zahir Hakim, Torry Holt, Ricky Proehl, Marshall Faulk,Kurt Warner, Orlando Pace, and the rest of that Ram team, did their job. COACHING was the difference without question.Only a self-absorbed "always right!!!" narcissistic, pinbrained poser on a sports message board would ever have the temerity to even TRY to defend his ridiculous position.

If the talent was that lopsided we wouldn't have held them to about 40 points in both times we played them that year.

Also lets not pretend like going for fg instead of sitting on it was some brilliant decision. We've seen teams do that forever.

Sorry you're old and have no idea what you're talking about. Go whinge and weep some more.

Doctor DDS · Mar 21, 2020

The Rams were 14 point favorites for a reason. They were 14-2 and had scored 500+ points for the 3rd straight year. Had over a 200 point scoring differential as well. The majority of their players were closer to their career peaks than where the Patriots were. That was the one Super Bowl win where its pretty obvious that coaching was the deciding factor. Pound their receivers, man handle Faulk and limit mistakes on offense. Worked like a charm.

TheRainMaker · Mar 21, 2020

1960Pats said:
The one that has me shaking my head is 2006, when QB Rex Grossman made it to the SB with HC Lovie Smith. How did that happen?

NFC was really bad that year and still considered JV to the AFC. Bears had a good defense creating turnovers and had home field.

holyredeemer · Mar 21, 2020

1960Pats said:
Now that the Pats let Brady walk I decided to do some research to see who has more of an impact on the field, the QB or the HC.

Below is the list of the last 20 SB's with the QB's and the HC's listed. The winners are on the left.

Mahomes/Garoppolo - Reid/Shanahan
Brady/Goff - BB/McVay
Foles/Brady - Pederson/BB
Brady/Ryan - BB/Quinn
P Manning/Newton - Kubiak/Rivera
Brady/Wilson - BB/Carroll
Wilson/P Manning - Carroll/Fox
Flacco/Kaepernick - Harbawl/Harbawl
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
Rodgers/Big Ben - McCarthy/Triplin
Brees/P Manning - Payton/Caldwell
Big Ben/Warner - Triplin/Whisenhunt
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
P Manning/Grossman - Dungy/Lovie Smith
Big Ben/Hasselbeck - Triplin/Holmgren
Brady/McNabb - BB/Reid
Brady/Delhomme - BB/Fox
Johnson/Gannon - Gruden/Callahan
Brady/Warner - BB/Martz
Dilfer/Collins - Billick/Fassel

Looking at that list I see many more average or below average HC's than I do average or below average QB's.

Bill Belichick has told us repeatedly that it's a players game and unless you believe he's blowing smoke up the players' arses with that comment, he's correct.

Quite a list of future HOF’s there. All-Time greats like Dilfer & Collins. Johnson & Gannon. Flacco & Kaepernick. The great Jake Delhomme, Hasselbeck (sp?), the phenomenal Goff, and what would Coughlin be without that perennial stud Eli ****ing Manning! WoooOoOo!!! Of course you’re going to see great QB’s on that list. It’s the most important and impactful position on a field, but those QB’s don’t get there without solid coaching and a decent team around them. You know what else I see on that list? More QB’s not named Brady than QB’s named Brady. It IS possible for other teams to make it to the big game. I know all the years of Brady’s dominance has made it hard to remember that but Brady doesn’t get there without Belichick and his staff putting a decent team around him and putting him in a position to play to his strengths and not his weaknesses. Why does this have to be turned into a Brady v. Belichick argument? Why can’t we all just live with the fact that those two men together were damn near impossible to stop? The important thing to remember is that Players win the games. Not player. Players. Who accumulated those players and then puts them into a position to succeed? Coaches & GM’s.

1960Pats · Mar 21, 2020

Joker said:
Look, make all the ageist bigot comments you want...THAT is the mark of a coward. I can see you're a gutless little puke all wrapped up in himself and that's OK, the rest of us are used to your ilk. COACHING won that Super Bowl. To argue "the players won that game!" is so ridiculous I have to ask, do you WATCH NFL football...or ANY football on any level? I'll make it simple so that even a profoundly ******ed, ageist bigot such as yourself can see it. As the game wound down,the announcers including John Madden(some guy who didn't know jack, right?) stated unequivocally that the Patriots should sit on the ball and wait for overtime. Belichick did what every so called "expert"(of which you aren't even an azz pimple on the butt of) said he shouldn't do and called for aggressive offensive plays designed to get the Pats in Vinatieri range. THAT was C-O-A-C-H-I-N-G. The players who were not even in the same breath ever going to be compared to Isaac Bruce,Az-Zahir Hakim, Torry Holt, Ricky Proehl, Marshall Faulk,Kurt Warner, Orlando Pace, and the rest of that Ram team, did their job. COACHING was the difference without question.Only a self-absorbed "always right!!!" narcissistic, pinbrained poser on a sports message board would ever have the temerity to even TRY to defend his ridiculous position.

At the time of that SB I was an AOLe and I remember arguing online with Rams fans (the worst I ever remember encountering) before the game. One of them commented that we don't have a Warner or a Faulk. I countered with "Faulk you we don't, check our roster."

The reason I bring this up is because I'm in the same lane as BGC, though I'm not driving way above the speed limit. That Pats team was more talented than they were given credit for, even by our own fans. I can still hear one Pats fan who I argued with after I got back from watching the last game in Carolina, who said "yeah, the Pats could make it to the SB but there's no way that they'll beat the Rams."

I'm also of the belief that a HC can only take you so far and that you need players that can execute. That defense worked because of Willie, Tedy, Ty. Big Sey, Mike Vrabel etc. They weren't that deep on offense but they had a little something there too.

Was that really 19 years ago? It seems like yesterday.

1960Pats · Mar 21, 2020

holyredeemer said:
Quite a list of future HOF’s there. All-Tome greats like Dilfer & Collins. Johnson & Gannon. Flacco & Kaepernick. The great Jake Delhomme, Hasselbeck (sp?), the phenomenal Goff, and what would Coughlin be without that perennial stud Eli ****ing Manning! WoooOoOo!!! Of course you’re going to see great QB’s on that list. It’s the most important and impactful position on a field, but those QB’s don’t get there without solid coaching and a decent team around them. You know what else I see on that list? More QB’ not named Brady than QB’s named Brady. It IS possible for other teams to make it to the big game. I know all the years of Brady’s dominance has made it hard to remember that but Brady doesn’t get there without Belichick and his staff putting a decent team around him and putting him in a position to play to his strengths and not his weaknesses. Why does this have to be turned into a Brady v. Belichick argument? Why can’t we all just live with the fact that those two men together were damn near impossible to stop? The important thing to remember is that Players win the games. Not player. Players. Who accumulated those players and then puts them into a position to succeed? Coaches & GM’s.

I wasn't trying to make it a Brady vs Belichick argument, though I do believe that QB's are more important than HC's. What I thought I showed was that more below average HC's make it than below average QB's

Ice_Ice_Brady · Mar 21, 2020

You can support any argument by using one game.

QB vs HC

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Not the kind of guy to say I told you so ...

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Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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In the Starting Line-Up

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Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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In the Starting Line-Up

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