TMZ reporting the passing of Kobe Bryant

festy1986 said:

My question is, why would the pilot continue to be at speeds of over 180mph when apparently it only takes 15mph to maintain a hover.

Why not wait it out, especially if it's true that he most certainly would of seen the hillside they only missed by a 100 feet.

Just literally a series of unfortunate events.

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He could’ve felt the pressure of getting a high profile celebrity to his game on time. Plus they were already holding 15 plus minutes earlier for traffic to clear.

Bobsyouruncle said:

I read the operator was not certified IFR for 135 operations.

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Saw that too. And apparently they have ceased operations (for how long I don’t know)

PatsFanInVa said:

Hold on, they have issued recommendations on this accident already?

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In the video by Clonamory they said their last two recommendations were not implemented. I don’t think they were necessarily saying “this” accident was the reason but they are using this as a platform to point out they already recommended those things.

It appears the plan was to fly from John Wayne airport to Calabasas airport where Kobe was going to get in a car and drive to the tournament. That would make this somewhat unusual in that usually helicopters are not used unless they are going off airport. Moving from one airport to another is faster and cheaper in an airplane. It also means IFR could have been flown but the operator was not authorized to fly IFR (even though the pilot and aircraft were).

That authorization likely has to do with meeting certain FAA requirements that the company felt were not worth the cost to meet. That’s not necessarily bad since the company probably rarely needs IFR, and simply not flying when it is needed is sensible. However maybe the pilot was reluctant to go IFR when he saw the weather coming down knowing that could get his employer into some trouble.

Congressman introduces bill to require TWAS in all helicopters.

Congressman introduces Kobe Bryant and Gianna Bryant Helicopter Safety Act

“Had this system been on the helicopter, it is likely the tragic crash could have been avoided. These systems cost between $25,000 to $40,000 per helicopter.”

This is my opinion based on what we know from the incomplete investigation. Things could change as more information comes out but so far it looks like a classic case of poor weather- followed by inadvertent loss of visual reference- followed by disorientation- followed by accidental descent into the terrain.

It actually sounds very unlikely a TWAS system would have prevented the accident as accidental descent caused by disorientation is the most plausible explanation for the data they’ve released. Also passenger carrying aircraft would make more sense than “all.” That was what the NTSB recommended so hopefully that’s the intent.

I think avionics that help reduce the chances of disorientation would be far more effective. Synthetic vision technology is out there. Oddly usually only on airplanes that fly so high it’s of little value.



This sort of display is extremely intuitive and in my opinion makes disorientation from a transition to instruments far safer. The red is areas above the altitude of the aircraft and the yellow usually means areas they are above but within 500 feet. This is in my opinion more and better information than a TWAS anyway, and appears to be about the same price.

Bang for the buck TWAS would be my third choice behind synthetic vision and auto-pilot. If they end up installing TWAS and the price makes it too expensive to get the other two it will be a mistake in my opinion. For other reasons I won’t get into, I also think TWAS could lead to accidents in helicopters or be ineffective. It’s of more value on airplanes.

Combined with an auto pilot, an inadvertent IMC situation could be a relatively low workload transition for the pilot to what it is now. The Kobe helicopter apparently had an auto-pilot though that had a “go around” mode (maybe it wasn’t working though have to wait for investigation). If it did work had he simply trusted the system and pressed it it would have began a straight climb and based on the data- easily cleared all terrain.

Bobsyouruncle said:

In the video by Clonamory they said their last two recommendations were not implemented. I don’t think they were necessarily saying “this” accident was the reason but they are using this as a platform to point out they already recommended those things.

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Bobsyouruncle said:

Congressman introduces bill to require TWAS in all helicopters.

Congressman introduces Kobe Bryant and Gianna Bryant Helicopter Safety Act

“Had this system been on the helicopter, it is likely the tragic crash could have been avoided. These systems cost between $25,000 to $40,000 per helicopter.”

This is my opinion based on what we know from the incomplete investigation. Things could change as more information comes out but so far it looks like a classic case of poor weather- followed by inadvertent loss of visual reference- followed by disorientation- followed by accidental descent into the terrain.

It actually sounds very unlikely a TWAS system would have prevented the accident as accidental descent caused by disorientation is the most plausible explanation for the data they’ve released. Also passenger carrying aircraft would make more sense than “all.” That was what the NTSB recommended so hopefully that’s the intent.

I think avionics that help reduce the chances of disorientation would be far more effective. Synthetic vision technology is out there. Oddly usually only on airplanes that fly so high it’s of little value.

This sort of display is extremely intuitive and in my opinion makes disorientation from a transition to instruments far safer. The red is areas above the altitude of the aircraft and the yellow usually means areas they are above but within 500 feet. This is in my opinion more and better information than a TWAS anyway, and appears to be about the same price.

Bang for the buck TWAS would be my third choice behind synthetic vision and auto-pilot. If they end up installing TWAS and the price makes it too expensive to get the other two it will be a mistake in my opinion. For other reasons I won’t get into, I also think TWAS could lead to accidents in helicopters or be ineffective. It’s of more value on airplanes.

Combined with an auto pilot, an inadvertent IMC situation could be a relatively low workload transition for the pilot to what it is now. The Kobe helicopter apparently had an auto-pilot though that had a “go around” mode (maybe it wasn’t working though have to wait for investigation). If it did work had he simply trusted the system and pressed it it would have began a straight climb and based on the data- easily cleared all terrain.

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Definitely get your points, & waiting to see more - there's a lot of "hmmmm" going on, e.g., descent rate being unintentional, etc. - EDIT, I mean a lot of "hmmmm" going on in my own personal head not anybody who is actually working this! I feel like I should always say, I am totally in the dark & responding as just a guy with a little familiarity with the Board and past reports, not even a pilot myself.

I'm okay with a TAWS rec being jumped on even if it turns out to not be as good as synthetic vision here. TAWS has the advantage of being evaluated thoroughly enough to have been recommended as basically a proven tech. I don't know how long synthetic vision has been out there, whether it's been evaluated by NTSB, whether the Board believes it has a proven safety benefit etc.

They're not always the first place to hear about a great safety technology... but by the time they do latch onto a technology, they've usually evaluated it pretty extensively

But I am not trying to bag on synthetic vision, especially since I am no expert (I am sure the experts DO know about it.)

I’m watching the tribute to Kobe before the game and it’s tough to get through. I’m still in denial over this.

TheRainMaker said:

I’m watching the tribute to Kobe before the game and it’s tough to get through. I’m still in denial over this.

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same

TheRainMaker said:

I’m watching the tribute to Kobe before the game and it’s tough to get through. I’m still in denial over this.

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I wonder if anything was written on the crib sheet that LeBron disregarded...or if it was his way of dramatizing his presentation.

PatsFanInVa said:

Definitely get your points, & waiting to see more - there's a lot of "hmmmm" going on, e.g., descent rate being unintentional, etc. - EDIT, I mean a lot of "hmmmm" going on in my own personal head not anybody who is actually working this! I feel like I should always say, I am totally in the dark & responding as just a guy with a little familiarity with the Board and past reports, not even a pilot myself.

I'm okay with a TAWS rec being jumped on even if it turns out to not be as good as synthetic vision here. TAWS has the advantage of being evaluated thoroughly enough to have been recommended as basically a proven tech. I don't know how long synthetic vision has been out there, whether it's been evaluated by NTSB, whether the Board believes it has a proven safety benefit etc.

They're not always the first place to hear about a great safety technology... but by the time they do latch onto a technology, they've usually evaluated it pretty extensively

But I am not trying to bag on synthetic vision, especially since I am no expert (I am sure the experts DO know about it.)

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I think when TAWS came out the idea that you could map something like the United States with all terrain, towers, and obstacles was scifi. Today all that data can go on an IPad. Newer TAWS combines mapping and ground proximity radar. I’ve never used it so I can’t say it’s bad really, maybe other people swear by it.

In this picture you can see how bad the fog is at this moment but it could of been worse before it was taken and likely was up in the air where the chopper would have been.

It confuses me that this chopper in the photo heading to the scene could be doing exactly what kobe pilot wasnt able to. It just feels like the pilot was disoriented for any of this to make sense

This video helped me understand what was likely happening in that helicopter.

Should watch if you still cant grasp your head around the mistakes.

festy1986 said:

This video helped me understand what was likely happening in that helicopter.

Should watch if you still cant grasp your head around the mistakes.

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Thanks. Last 10 minutes was especially good/entertaining.

Drewski said:

LeBron is there too, but as someone else said quoting an NBAer (I think I saw it here). "If you wanted to play and have fun, play with LeBron. If you wanted to play and win, play with Kobe."

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The quote was credited to Larry Bird upstream. The "Hick From French Lick' had a great way of putting things. One of my favorites was when he scored his 20,000th point. After a very long ovation, Bird said "If I knew it was going to be such a big deal I would have done it sooner."

RIP Kobe

Initial NTSB report is out with more details.

https://ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/DCA20MA059-Investigative-Update.pdf

Some interesting bits:

The SCT controller then asked the pilot his intentions, to which he replied he was climbing to 4,000 feet. There were no further transmissions.
Radar/ADS-B data indicate the aircraft was climbing along a course aligned with Highway 101 just east of the Las Virgenes exit.

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It appears he was attempting to climb into IFR, which would be a wise choice if he lost sight of the ground. 4,000 feet would clear the mountains.

The aircraft reached 2,300 feet msl (approximately 1,500 feet above the highway, which lies below the surrounding terrain) and began a left turn. Eight seconds later, the aircraft began descending and the left turn continued. The descent rate increased to over 4,000 feet per minute (fpm), ground speed reached 160 knots.

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We will likely never know why he chose to turn or if he intended to descend. A photograph in the report from a hiker above shows the top of the clouds at around 2,400 ft. He climbed to 2,300 and began turning. Another 100 feet and he would have been able to see and fly VMC.

The helicopter was equipped with a four-axis automatic flight control system, electronic flight instrument system, radio altimeter, and ADS-B transponder. It was also equipped with a flight management system (FMS).=inherit" ... "All inspections were up to date.

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This is a very capable aircraft for IMC. Likely one of the best. It’s possible he tried to use the auto pilot and did something wrong though. For instance pressing an altitude that is below instead of above. Or putting a heading into the airspeed hold. Something like putting 160 in thinking you are telling it to turn to 160 but you told it to accelerate to 160. Auto pilots can be dumb so the fact that the aircraft isn’t capable of that speed could cause it to over torque or dive to achieve its objective.

I have no idea how their auto pilot works or if they even tried to use it, that’s just an example of how it could cause an error for someone using it in a rush or unfamiliar with it. But I’m quite sure it had a button that simply engages a straight climb and simplifies the whole process in a rush.

According to FAA records, the pilot held an FAA commercial certificate with ratings for helicopter and instrument helicopter, as well as an FAA instructor certificate for flight, instrument, and ground instruction.His most recent FAA second-class medical certificate was issued on July 3, 2019, with a limitation stating, “must have glasses for near vision.” At the time of his last medical application, he reported 8,200 total hours of flight experience. The pilot logged about 1,250 total hours in the S76 helicopter. His most recent flight review, including proficiency training in inadvertent entry into instrument meteorological conditions (IIMC) and unusual attitude recovery, was conducted in a helicopter with EUROSAFETY International on May 8, 2019. The pilot received satisfactory grades for these maneuvers.

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The pilot was certainly very qualified. At least in all the ways we could measure.

Fig 2b of the accident appears consistent with a spiral descent caused by spatial disorientation. Same thing that killed John Kennedy Jr. I'm a private pilot and that earlier incident is what inspired me to get IFR certification. The thing is, that helicopter had the auto pilot capabilities to stay out of that kind of trouble, as did John Jr's airplane, and it makes no sense that the pilot would be hand flying in those conditions.

raduray said:

Fig 2b of the accident appears consistent with a spiral descent caused by spatial disorientation. Same thing that killed John Kennedy Jr. I'm a private pilot and that earlier incident is what inspired me to get IFR certification. The thing is, that helicopter had the auto pilot capabilities to stay out of that kind of trouble, as did John Jr's airplane, and it makes no sense that the pilot would be hand flying in those conditions.

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I’ve seen the attitude among some pilots that letting the auto pilot fly is giving in or admitting you lack the skills.

There’s an old saying that I subscribe to:

The superior pilot is one that uses his superior judgement to avoid situations that require his superior skill.

Bobsyouruncle said:

I’ve seen the attitude among some pilots that letting the auto pilot fly is giving in or admitting you lack the skills.

There’s an old saying that I subscribe to:

The superior pilot is one that uses his superior judgement to avoid situations that require his superior skill.

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Whenever I flew cross country IFR into IMC, with one exception, I used my auto pilot. The one time I didn't, that AP was down and I foolishly decided to fly to a family gathering in Cleveland anyway. The flight went well, but flying in instrument conditions by hand required total focus, staring at the gauges for extended periods , leaving me exhausted and reinforced that I would never do that again.

I’m surprised Alison Morris hasn’t been fired yet.