Free Agents - Offense Will any but Brady be re-signed?

supafly said:

How about the guy who claimed that none of the TEs drafted had produced for any team this year? I quit looking after Fant, Smith, and Knox.

@Patsgofor4

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My point was none of the TEs in the 2019 would have been impacts players for the Pats. You are impressed with this 2019 production?

Smith 36/311 2TDs
Knox 28/388 2TDs

That’s setting the “impact” bar pretty damn low. They both may end up being impact TEs but that wasn’t the argument. I don’t think that many here were clamoring for Griffin when he was available for no compensation after the Texans cut him but he had a more impactful year than both of them at 34/320 with 5TDs.

Fant (40/562 14.1 YPC 3TDs) had a good rookie year and came closest to being a true impact rookie but 3TDs is underwhelming and it would have been very expensive to jump the Broncos at 20 (ie. you probably would have been whining about the cost for a athletic TE would can’t block).

Your “drop mic” post was a dud. Sorry.

Patsgofor4 said:

My point was none of the TEs in the 2019 would have been impacts players for the Pats. You are impressed with this 2019 production?

Smith 36/311 2TDs
Knox 28/388 2TDs

That’s setting the “impact” bar pretty damn low. They both may end up being impact TEs but that wasn’t the argument. I don’t think that many here were clamoring for Griffin when he was available for no compensation after the Texans cut him but he had a more impactful year than both of them at 34/320 with 5TDs.

Fant (40/562 14.1 YPC 3TDs) had a good rookie year and came closest to being a true impact rookie but 3TDs is underwhelming and it would have been very expensive to jump the Broncos at 20 (ie. you probably would have been whining about the cost for a athletic TE would can’t block).

Your “drop mic” post was a dud. Sorry.

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Supa's post was fine.

The players don't come out in their primes. They come out as rookies. Gronk had 42 catches as a rookie. He was still impactful.


Also, Watson/LaCosse/Izzo teamed up for 36 receptions, combined. I think your setting your bar for impact too high.

Deus Irae said:

Supa's post was fine.

The players don't come out in their primes. They come out as rookies. Gronk had 42 catches as a rookie. He was still impactful.


Also, Watson/LaCosse/Izzo teamed up for 36 receptions, combined. I think your setting your bar for impact too high.

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God, you are so full of sh*t. You conveniently/intentionally left out the fact that Gronk had TEN touchdowns his rookie year (42/546/10) and was already a top tier blocker. That’s a massive difference in his production and that of Knox/Smith, so don’t embarrass yourself again with that comparison. AGAIN, we were/are talking only about 2019, not what they may become in the future.

Patsgofor4 said:

God, you are so full of sh*t. You conveniently/intentionally left out the fact that Gronk had TEN touchdowns his rookie year (42/546/10) and was already a top tier blocker. That’s a massive difference in his production and that of Knox/Smith, so don’t embarrass yourself again with that comparison. AGAIN, we were/are talking only about 2019, not what they may become in the future.

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Well in 2019, I expect Irv Smith would have had a positive impact even based on those numbers. And the Pats offense typically does a really good job of using TEs, so I expect they would have been better. Also I think the point was not that any of these TEs will approach Gronk, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have had a bigger contribution than our collection of TEs

Patsgofor4 said:

God, you are so full of sh*t. You conveniently/intentionally left out the fact that Gronk had TEN touchdowns his rookie year (42/546/10) and was already a top tier blocker. That’s a massive difference in his production and that of Knox/Smith, so don’t embarrass yourself again with that comparison. AGAIN, we were/are talking only about 2019, not what they may become in the future.

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Touchdowns are a function of a whole lot of things, and by no means specific to an individual player (though there are players who seem to be able to consistently excel at racking up the TDs), or particularly useful as proof of overall talent. Furthermore, they're just one facet of any receiver's game, and a relatively unimportant one in the grand scheme of football things, so why would I put them in there?

BTW: Hernandez had 45 catches in 2010

BTW II: Wes Welker had 5 seasons of 100+ catches and 1000+ yards, but never had double digit receiving TDs. His first year in Denver, he had just 73 catches, but had 10 receiving TDs.

BTWIII: Julian Edelman has never had more than 7 receiving TDs in a season.

BTWIV: Tony Gonzalez, another one of those who get included inthe debate for G.O.A.T. at the TE position, played 17 NFL seasons, had double digit receiving TDs only 3 times, never had more than 11 receiving TDs in one season, had 3 seasons with just 2 TDs, and had 8 seasons with 6 TDs or fewer.


To repeat what I'd posted earlier: the combination of Watson, LaCrosse, and Izzo combined for a grand total of 36 receptions. Also, that trio combined for just 2 receiving TDs.

So, even for TDs: despite your derision, and just using the straight stats as you seem to be doing, the two aforementioned rookies were better than any NE TE, and as good as all 3 combined.

Patsgofor4 said:

My point was none of the TEs in the 2019 would have been impacts players for the Pats. You are impressed with this 2019 production?

Smith 36/311 2TDs
Knox 28/388 2TDs

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How do you know that none of the TEs drafted would’ve been impact players in N.England this year, and why would you be unimpressed with twice the numbers that we saw here? Ben Watson had 17 catches. The bar was set pretty low, and that occurred in a year when the WRs who weren’t #11 were complete, unproductive wastes of roster spaces and Brady was desperate for someone to step up.

For comparison’s sake, here are the rookie numbers from the greatest TEs the game has ever seen:

Gonzalez—33 catches
Winslow Sr—25 catches
Gates—24 catches
Witten—35 catches
Sharpe—29 catches (first two years combined)

VJCPatriot said:

Don’t forget also dk metcalf 900 yd 7td and terry mclaurin 919 7 Td daryius slayton 740 8 td. All taken after Harry. We have the worst WR Scouting and drafting in the league and I’m sick of it!

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coming out of college, Harry had high marks for ball tracking and winning contested throws. And he had low marks for speed and separation,

Odd that bb would value ball tracking and winning contested throws in a receiver when he knew he had a qb that values separation and route precision while preferring to not throw 50-50 balls.

The only answer I have is bb drafted Harry to win 50-50 balls in the end zone. Unfortunately for us, we had no receivers outside of Edelman that could help us get to the end zone,

Even more unfortunate is the fact that our season ended when we had 1st and goal from the one and Harry could not score for us. It all kind of blew up in bb’s face.

Patsgofor4 said:

we were/are talking only about 2019, not what they may become in the future.

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As mentioned in my previous post, the 2019 TE draft class had players who helped their team catch, block, and win games, and their rookie numbers are comparable or better to some of the greatest TEs to ever play the game.

I’m still not sure what your argument even is, or what you’d disagree with, but I don’t think you’re going to find too many who would omit the position from a laundry list of issues that plagued the 2019 team.

I think the point is: Gronk retired. BB knew he needed a TE. BB did not draft a TE.

There is no reason to think BB will draft a TE this year. Or a WR (which may be a good thing, considering the Pats track record.

Deus Irae said:

I don't expect either to happen, but I can see an argument for either/both of Dorsett and Newhouse being brought back.

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Newhouse was actually pretty good at RT; horrific at LT. So not necessarily a terrible guy to have on the team under the right circumstance. Dorsett is a JAG, sadly.

Thuney I'd try like crazy to keep him around. But I expect him to command a pretty sizable sum. If Andrews comes back and they keep Thuney, the starting OL is really good.

Patsgofor4 said:

My point was none of the TEs in the 2019 would have been impacts players for the Pats. You are impressed with this 2019 production?

Smith 36/311 2TDs
Knox 28/388 2TDs

That’s setting the “impact” bar pretty damn low. They both may end up being impact TEs but that wasn’t the argument. I don’t think that many here were clamoring for Griffin when he was available for no compensation after the Texans cut him but he had a more impactful year than both of them at 34/320 with 5TDs.

Fant (40/562 14.1 YPC 3TDs) had a good rookie year and came closest to being a true impact rookie but 3TDs is underwhelming and it would have been very expensive to jump the Broncos at 20 (ie. you probably would have been whining about the cost for a athletic TE would can’t block).

Your “drop mic” post was a dud. Sorry.

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Nothing like being wrong and smug at the same time.

I wanted to bring this to the top.

There seems to be more speculation with regard to Cannon being done. In any case, we need a couple of OT's, four total seems right, with one who can be the TE in the jumbo set.

Perhaps Newhouse should be signed. The real cost is only his bonus money. Hopefully, we will get better in free agency and in the draft. Competition is good. However, it does seem very possible that Cannon retires and Wynn is considered for LT. Newhouse is a possible backup RT, and possibly will even compete for starting reps at RT if cannon is gone. At very least Newhouse is injury protection as a backup RT.

Deus Irae said:

I don't expect either to happen, but I can see an argument for either/both of Dorsett and Newhouse being brought back.

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mgteich said:

I wanted to bring this to the top.

There seems to be more speculation with regard to Cannon being done. In any case, we need a couple of OT's, four total seems right, with one who can be the TE in the jumbo set.

Perhaps Newhouse should be signed. The real cost is only his bonus money. Hopefully, we will get better in free agency and in the draft. Competition is good. However, it does seem very possible that Cannon retires and Wynn is considered for LT. Newhouse is a possible backup RT, and possibly will even compete for starting reps at RT if cannon is gone. At very least Newhouse is injury protection as a backup RT.

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Salary cap reasoning makes it such that moving on from Cannon this year is a bad idea ($5,133,334 cap hit for $3,783,332 cap savings in 2020 versus $2,566,668 cap hit for $6,350,000 cap savings). But, if he's got issues we don't know of, or the team just really thinks he's done, anything is possible. And, of course, if he retires, need at the position becomes glaringly obvious.

The problem with Newhouse is that he's obviously not starter material at either OT position (Yes, we can maintain the "But, maybe, despite history, with just the one side..." in the anything is possible file). And, even if you find him acceptable as a RT backup, he obviously can't play the left side. So, if you keep Newhouse as your RT2, you still have to pony up for a legitimate LT2. And that hasn't really been this team's M.O..

ChrisR2223 said:

Wish Tyler Lockett was here he is everything Belichick loves

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Bill: "Who needs Tyler Lockett when Jordan Richards is still on the board?"

Boomer B said:

Newhouse was ok filling in at RT?

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Zuma said:

He didn’t suck at RT.

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In fact, Newhouse played Better at RT than Cannon did after he replaced him early in that one (KC? Barfalo?) game. I was very, Very disappointed that Cannon returned to his starting position the following week.

Chevrolet said:

AJ Green is a soon to be 32 yo WR made of glass who is always injured. Why would the Bengals want him back? They also need to rebuild. In terms of being durable and dependable he is completely unreliable.

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Froob said:

Why didn’t they trade him then?

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Because they're the Bungles.

mgteich said:

The only free agent on offense that I would re-sign is Karras. He is good enough as a backup at OC and OG.

I think the rest should be gone.
Thuney (someone will offer lots more than we will)
Dorsett
Watson
Newhouse
Kessler
Eluemunor
Ferentz (as always, he could be added for camp competition)
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Depending on health, we should get the following back from the IR
Froholdt
Develin
Andrews
Cajuste

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Mongo Jr Jr did indeed improve during the course of the season; I'm still not going to pay him Starting Center money, however. Good backup C/G money, sure.

Because of the money-stealing Mason, we can no longer afford Thuney, who will probably fetch us a 2022 3rd-round comp.

I despise Dorsett; what he did/didn't do during the last 2 games was nothing short of Disgraceful. I don't want him back At Any Price.

Newhouse played better at RT for one game than Cannon did during many games throughout the season; I would still however offer him only a one-year deal with Zero guarantees.

I would offer Elmanure a one-year deal plus an option, for the minimum with some (but very little) guaranteed.

Thanksdad Ferentz is Garbage; I don't want to see him in the building ever, Ever again.

Dante soon figured out that Frodo & his T-Rex arms sucked, so they IRed him with the Foxboro Flu in the hopes that he can suck less by this time next year. Horrible pick when Mike Jordan was still available.

When I saw Develin take that hit and slowly walk off the field in Miami, I knew that was the End.
The good news is that decent FBs are actually not that hard to find; Little Billy just makes it seem that way.

Andrews could very well return next season; other OL have, e.g. Russell Okung. Still, a re-signed Karras or a signed somebody else is essential.

Yawndy Cachoo was already Damaged Goods before the draft (and only a top-150-caliber player when healthy anyway); marginal backup RT/RG Only is his ceiling.

first I want a second round pick...when we get THAT, I'll let you know who I want when.

captain stone said:

Mongo Jr Jr did indeed improve during the course of the season; I'm still not going to pay him Starting Center money, however. Good backup C/G money, sure.

Because of the money-stealing Mason, we can no longer afford Thuney, who will probably fetch us a 2022 3rd-round comp.

I despise Dorsett; what he did/didn't do during the last 2 games was nothing short of Disgraceful. I don't want him back At Any Price.

Newhouse played better at RT for one game than Cannon did during many games throughout the season; I would still however offer him only a one-year deal with Zero guarantees.

I would offer Elmanure a one-year deal plus an option, for the minimum with some (but very little) guaranteed.

Thanksdad Ferentz is Garbage; I don't want to see him in the building ever, Ever again.

Dante soon figured out that Frodo & his T-Rex arms sucked, so they IRed him with the Foxboro Flu in the hopes that he can suck less by this time next year. Horrible pick when Mike Jordan was still available.

When I saw Develin take that hit and slowly walk off the field in Miami, I knew that was the End.
The good news is that decent FBs are actually not that hard to find; Little Billy just makes it seem that way.

Andrews could very well return next season; other OL have, e.g. Russell Okung. Still, a re-signed Karras or a signed somebody else is essential.

Yawndy Cachoo was already Damaged Goods before the draft (and only a top-150-caliber player when healthy anyway); marginal backup RT/RG Only is his ceiling.

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Karras will not be paid like a backup. Again, if it’s not the Pats, someone else will make it happen.

Current 2020 Free Agents (Offense):
Tom Brady
Phillip Dorsett
Matt Slater
Marshall Newhouse
Joe Thuney
Ben Watson
James Ferentz
Jermaine Eluemunor
Ted Karras

Other than Brady, even though he is special teams, I want Slater resigned. He seems to be the heart of the team. IF Thuney is resigned; shift Wynn to RT/Swing Tackle. If not; kick Wynn inside to Guard and draft Mekhi Becton for LT either way.

Let Watson, Newhouse and Eluemunor retire/walk. I would consider Dorsett for vet minimum otherwise he could walk as well. We may be priced out on Karras and Ferentz. They each may get starter money from another team. Though I would try to keep at least one of them especially if Thuney leaves.