All-Pro Team announced

Marcus Peters made First Team and Second Team.

Patjew said:

One of my New Years resolutions was to be less petulant.

And yet I’m still so mad at Gilmore for last week. He talked too much and played his worst when it mattered most.

Maybe I’ll do better with my “drink more water” resolution.

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That's been a pattern with him, the more he talks the worst his play.

203Pat said:

Makes me think there's even less of a chance we re-sign him.

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Not re-signing Thuney would be a huge mistake. That is of course if they plan on contending for a SB with TB next year. Otherwise, I could see why letting him go would make sense.

If they do let him go, the Patriots essentially traded Chandler Jones (An all pro btw) for Malcolm Mitchell. Yikes...

What the heck is the point of a Flex slot if just goes to the same RB?

Patstastic said:

If they do let him go, the Patriots essentially traded Chandler Jones (An all pro btw) for Malcolm Mitchell. Yikes...

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Huh? If they let him go, they traded Chandler Jones for one year of Malcolm Mitchell, who played a meaningful role on a Super Bowl team, and four years of Joe Thuney, who did the same on two Super Bowl teams (and maybe three!)

primetime said:

That... wasn't the point. Sherman got 10 1st team votes as a corner, solidly third place to Gilmore/White. Marcus Peters got 1. However, Peters got 7 first team votes as a "defensive back" while Sherman only got 5, so Peters is a 1st team All Pro while Sherman is not. However, that means 15 voters considered Sherman at least the third best corner in football (10+5) compared to just 8 for Peters (1+7), and most of Peters votes were 'third place' votes.

If the "defensive back" category instead and more sanely went to the highest remaining vote-getter after the top 2 corners and safeties, it would have been Sherman. Then 2nd team corners are Lattimore and Peters, and the 2nd team flex is Harrison Smith (based on highest vote-getters).

Similarly, on offense, Henry should have been the 1st team flex. Chubb would have been the 2nd team RB. The 2nd team flex would actually be a mystery, since there's a whole bunch of players who tied for 1 vote for positions (Edelman, Golladay, Cook) and others for multiple flex votes (Kupp, Aaron Jones). Again, a good reason to do two rounds of voting rather than have everyone make a vote only for 1st team.

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dude **** off with all this math what the hell

TinhWoodhead said:

6x a-hole too, made it this yr on rep prob

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I don’t know enough about Xs and Os, game plans, and strategy to criticize.

This is merely an anecdotal observation based on an incredibly minuscule sample size. For all I’ve heard about Donald being the greatest defensive player...perhaps the league’s best player, etc - it sure seems like he’s invisible in some high profile games.

Examples being the Super Bowl, and MNF vs the Ravens this year. Maybe he’s being doubled/tripled...whatever, and the JAGs around him can’t take advantage (plus playing great O-lines).

I’m sure if I saw him play all the time it would be different.

primetime said:

We're at the point of a historically good player's career where a tremendous season with 12.5 sacks and 20 TFL (led the league) gets handwaved away as resting on laurels.

If anything, Donald's hit Brady/Belichick territory, where it becomes more difficult to win awards and accolades because historically good is just what's expected. He's probably closer to Gilmore/Barrett as DPOY than will be evident in voting but his inability to duplicate his historically dominant season from last year and only have a really, really good one will hurt him.

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The way that he wrecks games reminds me of Seymour in his prime.

Wingy said:

I don’t know enough about Xs and Os, game plans, and strategy to criticize.

This is merely an anecdotal observation based on an incredibly minuscule sample size. For all I’ve heard about Donald being the greatest defensive player...perhaps the league’s best player, etc - it sure seems like he’s invisible in some high profile games.

Examples being the Super Bowl, and MNF vs the Ravens this year. Maybe he’s being doubled/tripled...whatever, and the JAGs around him can’t take advantage (plus playing great O-lines).

I’m sure if I saw him play all the time it would be different.

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He got 49 out of 50 votes so he must be doing something right.

primetime said:

We're at the point of a historically good player's career where a tremendous season with 12.5 sacks and 20 TFL (led the league) gets handwaved away as resting on laurels.

If anything, Donald's hit Brady/Belichick territory, where it becomes more difficult to win awards and accolades because historically good is just what's expected. He's probably closer to Gilmore/Barrett as DPOY than will be evident in voting but his inability to duplicate his historically dominant season from last year and only have a really, really good one will hurt him.

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Barrett has no chance to win DPOY. PFT made a really stupid pick in going with him over Gilmore...I’m glad that voters aren’t dumb/lazy enough to just look at the highest sack total and go with that. Barrett wasn’t even first team all-pro, and these are the same voters. Jones and Watt probably cancel each other out, and like you said, Donald is in a new territory, like LeBron trying to win an MVP. All three of those guys are better choices than Barrett, though.

Gilmore was the only unanimous defensive selection, and MMQB staff had almost every first place vote going to him (after week 17.). Panels of sportswriters from mainstream sites are usually heavy predictors, as are the oddsmakers.

Anyway, here is PFT doubling down on their terrible pick for DPOY. Gilmore is the obvious choice, and I think with the all-pro results there’s about a 99% chance he is winning it.

Shaquil Barrett is first sacks leader since 2010 not chosen first-team All-Pro

Patjew said:

The way that he wrecks games reminds me of Seymour in his prime.

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The only thing about Donald is that the Rams defense has never really been that good. I think as crazy good as he is, it's nuts to talk about him for MVP or as the best player in the league. Defensive players just don't make the impact QBs do.

Froob said:

The only thing about Donald is that the Rams defense has never really been that good. I think as crazy good as he is, it's nuts to talk about him for MVP or as the best player in the league. Defensive players just don't make the impact QBs do.

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This has been my point about having an elite cornerback. They do actually make defenses much better (though certainly not on the level of a QB/offense.). I am being particularly enthusiastic about Gilmore for DPOY because (a) I’m a homer, (b) it makes him way more likely to make the Hall of Fame, and (c) there should be a sabermetric style revolution in the NFL where defensive players are re-evaluated. As much as I hate the Jets, I was still hoping Revis would win DPOY and same with Sherman, just because they deserved it.

In today’s passing friendly game, defensive backs are more valuable than front 7 guys, even though a top corner is paid in the $15M range while a top pass rushers is over $20M? There are so many pass rushers. Look at how the best cornerbacks,safeties have all led to outstanding defenses in 2019:

Gilmore - Revis-like coverage skills leads to historically good defense. Last game shows what happens when he doesn’t play at superhuman level.

White - Bills have a top-3 defense, and it’s largely because Tre’Davious White, who has been a terror ever since joining the Bills. The Patriots stopped being able to score in bundles when that dude stepped on the field as a rookie.

Sherman - Playing healthy, gigantic influence in the 49ers defense this year. His coverage skills unlock so many other weapons on D, just like these other guys.

Peters - Not a huge fan (generally overrated) but he’s been fantastic this year and as soon as he arrived in Baltimore their defense tightened up a ton. Humphrey also great.

Fitzpatrick - Great trade by Pittsburgh, took them from being very good to borderline elite defensive unit.

So what’s that, the top 5 defenses in the league all just happen to have a superstar defensive back? Where are those numerous 15+ sack guys making $20M? Does it even make a difference on defense? Probably, but not to the same degree as basically cutting the field in half due to glue coverage.

As good as Watt and Donald have been in their primes this decade, if I’m a GM and could have anyone on my defense in their prime, I’m taking Revis, Sherman, and Gilmore every time.

Patjew said:

The way that he wrecks games reminds me of Seymour in his prime.

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He's better than Seymour ever was. No knock on Seymour, who's a Hall of Fame player, but Donald's just in a league of his own.

I agree that a #1 corner is generally better than a #1 defensive tackle, all else considered, though I'm not sure I'd say the Rams haven't had a top defense during his tenure. Gilmore's a great player but the Patriots have a lot of good players on that defense, including the secondary, just like the Seahawks during Sherman's prime, while Donald's been a bit of a one-man show.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

This has been my point about having an elite cornerback. They do actually make defenses much better (though certainly not on the level of a QB/offense.). I am being particularly enthusiastic about Gilmore for DPOY because (a) I’m a homer, (b) it makes him way more likely to make the Hall of Fame, and (c) there should be a sabermetric style revolution in the NFL where defensive players are re-evaluated. As much as I hate the Jets, I was still hoping Revis would win DPOY and same with Sherman, just because they deserved it.

In today’s passing friendly game, defensive backs are more valuable than front 7 guys, even though a top corner is paid in the $15M range while a top pass rushers is over $20M? There are so many pass rushers. Look at how the best cornerbacks,safeties have all led to outstanding defenses in 2019:

Gilmore - Revis-like coverage skills leads to historically good defense. Last game shows what happens when he doesn’t play at superhuman level.

White - Bills have a top-3 defense, and it’s largely because Tre’Davious White, who has been a terror ever since joining the Bills. The Patriots stopped being able to score in bundles when that dude stepped on the field as a rookie.

Sherman - Playing healthy, gigantic influence in the 49ers defense this year. His coverage skills unlock so many other weapons on D, just like these other guys.

Peters - Not a huge fan (generally overrated) but he’s been fantastic this year and as soon as he arrived in Baltimore their defense tightened up a ton. Humphrey also great.

Fitzpatrick - Great trade by Pittsburgh, took them from being very good to borderline elite defensive unit.

So what’s that, the top 5 defenses in the league all just happen to have a superstar defensive back? Where are those numerous 15+ sack guys making $20M? Does it even make a difference on defense? Probably, but not to the same degree as basically cutting the field in half due to glue coverage.

As good as Watt and Donald have been in their primes this decade, if I’m a GM and could have anyone on my defense in their prime, I’m taking Revis, Sherman, and Gilmore every time.

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49ers defense has been a long time coming as someone who's been saying they'll have this kind of defense for a while now. Sherman is playing great & a big factor but truthfully it's their pass rush that's allowing him the others to flourish rn. Bosa, Ford, AA has been great. They moved to a more aggressive wide 9 & haven't looked back. He's one of many great defenders on that side of the ball but arguably not the best. Not that it really matters.
It's been a long time coming for them & everything really fell into place this year.

Same for Balt & Pitt as well. Minkah had a huge impact but would they be that good without TJ having an outstanding year or Dupree finally having an impact, a big one at that.

CBs are genuinely more valuable nowadays but you're being very simplistic here with all due respect. Point being it's usually a mix of everything when you look deeper. You can throw the other way with great corners just like you can erase 1 elite pass rusher.

Also sacks are not overrated in the least bit. There was a stud from a few years ago stating you get a sack/TFL and the series only has a 16% chance of moving forward. I doubt those #'s change dramatically but I'm always looking for that stuff so will pass it along.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

49ers defense has been a long time coming as someone who's been saying they'll have this kind of defense for a while now. Sherman is playing great & a big factor but truthfully it's their pass rush that's allowing him the others to flourish rn. Bosa, Ford, AA has been great. They moved to a more aggressive wide 9 & haven't looked back. He's one of many great defenders on that side of the ball but arguably not the best. Not that it really matters.
It's been a long time coming for them & everything really fell into place this year.

Same for Balt & Pitt as well. Minkah had a huge impact but would they be that good without TJ having an outstanding year or Dupree finally having an impact, a big one at that.

CBs are genuinely more valuable nowadays but you're being very simplistic here with all due respect. Point being it's usually a mix of everything when you look deeper. You can throw the other way with great corners just like you can erase 1 elite pass rusher.

Also sacks are not overrated in the least bit. There was a stud from a few years ago stating you get a sack/TFL and the series only has a 16% chance of moving forward. I doubt those #'s change dramatically but I'm always looking for that stuff so will pass it along.

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If I am guilty of exaggerating it’s in retaliation to the idea that the best defensive players are always sack leaders. Of course Donald, TJ Watt, Bosa, etc are awesome players. It just annoys me that corners are rarely mentioned on “best defensive players” lists because their impact isn’t qualified by a simple stat like sacks.

You had Barrett and Jones locked in a big “Defensive Player of the Year” showdown as both were trying to pad their stats despite the Cardinals and Bucs being bottom 5 defensive teams.

It’s not that sacks are bad or don’t help...it’s that the desperate pursuit of them do often come at the expensive of the overall unit. I can’t find the article, but Tedy Bruschi has a great breakdown of why the Patriots don’t have these big individual sack number guys, and it had to do with the greater good and creating pressure as a group effort, which leads to better results than a Chandler Jones/Arizona situation where he just pins his ears back every down. Obviously I’m not knocking someone like Donald or Watt here, but I think in general edge rushers are overrated, especially when it comes to cap economics. Dee Ford and Trey Flowers help a defense more than Gilmore, Sherman, etc? That’s what their contracts say. We’ll see what T. White gets for an extension, but I’m guessing it is less than $17M per year, which is like the starting point for a pass rushers who is considered elite (or even non-elite, but just very good with a lot of sacks, in many cases.)

primetime said:

That... wasn't the point. Sherman got 10 1st team votes as a corner, solidly third place to Gilmore/White. Marcus Peters got 1. However, Peters got 7 first team votes as a "defensive back" while Sherman only got 5, so Peters is a 1st team All Pro while Sherman is not. However, that means 15 voters considered Sherman at least the third best corner in football (10+5) compared to just 8 for Peters (1+7), and most of Peters votes were 'third place' votes.

If the "defensive back" category instead and more sanely went to the highest remaining vote-getter after the top 2 corners and safeties, it would have been Sherman. Then 2nd team corners are Lattimore and Peters, and the 2nd team flex is Harrison Smith (based on highest vote-getters).

Similarly, on offense, Henry should have been the 1st team flex. Chubb would have been the 2nd team RB. The 2nd team flex would actually be a mystery, since there's a whole bunch of players who tied for 1 vote for positions (Edelman, Golladay, Cook) and others for multiple flex votes (Kupp, Aaron Jones). Again, a good reason to do two rounds of voting rather than have everyone make a vote only for 1st team.

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Classic NFL stupidity.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Classic NFL stupidity.

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Worse because if they do it sanely (top vote-getters for flex, two rounds of voting with 1st team removed) it's not impossible Jonathan Jones gets in as a 2nd teamer since he got 4 3rd place votes in a single round of voting.

But that's impossible in the current setting and the 2nd team ends up being guys who get 1 or 2 votes (literally, Peters and Lattimore the 2nd team corners, got 1 vote apiece because Gilmore and White got 88 out of 100 possible first team votes and Sherman got 10).

primetime said:

Worse because if they do it sanely (top vote-getters for flex, two rounds of voting with 1st team removed) it's not impossible Jonathan Jones gets in as a 2nd teamer since he got 4 3rd place votes in a single round of voting.

But that's impossible in the current setting and the 2nd team ends up being guys who get 1 or 2 votes (literally, Peters and Lattimore the 2nd team corners, got 1 vote apiece because Gilmore and White got 88 out of 100 possible first team votes and Sherman got 10).

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I have absolutely no idea why there needs to be three defensive backs beyond two corners and two safeties. Seven defensive backs then? Really makes no sense at all. Put in a third CB or even put in a Nickel Back. This is like saying, okay, now after we have our two tackles, two guards, and a center, let’s vote for three offensive linemen!

Yes, it seems like “Defensive Back” designation is reserved for those who the voters think won’t make the first team (so in other words, a Second Teamer). That is really, really dumb and makes no sense at all. I think Sherman was the consensus third best corner but he was passed over for first team by Humphrey and Peters, who made first team because voters thought they weren’t good enough to be First Team. Only the NFL can make this big of a mess out of an All-Pro team.

Meanwhile, the two voters who were stupid/homer-ish enough to vote for Peters and Lattimore over White and Sherman get to select the second team corners. The two most incompetent voters have the most power.

primetime said:

He's better than Seymour ever was. No knock on Seymour, who's a Hall of Fame player, but Donald's just in a league of his own.

I agree that a #1 corner is generally better than a #1 defensive tackle, all else considered, though I'm not sure I'd say the Rams haven't had a top defense during his tenure. Gilmore's a great player but the Patriots have a lot of good players on that defense, including the secondary, just like the Seahawks during Sherman's prime, while Donald's been a bit of a one-man show.

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He’s a better player than Seymour in his prime, though the gap isn’t humungous. There was just never really a great metric to measure Seymour’s impact, but he was considered a top-3 defensive player for about 5 years. But I agree that Donald is more dominant. However, Donald is also massively more annoying (if you watched the Super Bowl sound bytes.) So there’s that.

My problem with Seymour is I feel like the Pats could have done much better in the 2001 draft, but that’s just me. On a day when they could have had impact players David Terrell or Koren Robinson or the second-best tackle in the draft in Kenyatta Walker, they took Georgia defensive tackle Richard Seymour, who had 1 sack last season in the pass-happy SEC and is too tall to play tackle at 6-6 and too slow to play defensive end. This genius move was followed by trading out of a spot where they could have gotten the last decent receiver in Robert Ferguson and settled for tackle Matt Light, who will not help any time soon.

Fred Warner should have made it over Watt who never plays off the ball. Z Smith maybe over Cam? Warner definitely.

It's better than the pro-bowl but both are still too flawed. Terrell Edmunds got a vote. That's one more vote than takeaways this year.