Money and cap considerations: another year of Brady or ... ?

Patriot Missile · Jan 1, 2020

Lot of things are going to play into this for me. Is David Andrews coming back? Who’s staying, who’s going? What was the extent of Brady’s denied injury? Sorry but when you come out of every presser with Ice on your elbow, you can deny it all you want but there is definitely something there. Hoping it was just tennis elbow. Months of rest can fully heal that and in most cases surgery is not required.

We talk like it’s over even though we are still in the playoffs which sounds crazy. But it may not be, this might be just a serious case of paranoia stirring from the mediots and Patriots may have no idea wtf we’re talking about

Doctor DDS · Jan 1, 2020

The Browns effectively tanked for a decade and still stink. Re-tool and come back looking for another title.

IllegalContact · Jan 1, 2020

Biffins said:
Glad you’re not running the FO.

same for you

Antdawg · Jan 1, 2020

Was Brady's big intangible that he was "moldable/coachable"? To me, that is why a guy like Stidham could have big success too with this coaching staff, if he is as moldable as Brady was. Look at Jimmy G, a late 2nd round pick. Rode the bench, was ready for stardom really from day one he stepped off the plane in SF. Yes Jimmy had more time to develop his pro game, but Belichick has shown the ability to mold QBs and help them realize their full potential. Stidham seems to have that potential. If he's a moldable as Jimmy G or Brady, then yeah, I'd be ecstatic to go to Stidham full time in 2020 and build around him.

Think of it this way, if you could go back in time to 2015 and get the 2015 Jimmy G and bring him back to the future to play for the Pats in 2020 (for peanuts!!), part ways with Brady -- would you not do it?? I would in a heartbeat, Brady will be 43. You would have your franchise QB in place for 10+ years minimum and get him at a bargain for a while so you could build around him. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, but wasn't the Stidham draft pick done with the same idea in mind?

kennyb · Jan 1, 2020

Mcdaniels needs to go. His offenses are complex but don't seem to be especially good. It all hinges on brady and a guy like Edelman who can always get open.

I think brady. Mcdaniels, hightower, Dmac, kvn, sanu all gone. Not sure about thuney. Time to blow it up.

TomPatriot · Jan 1, 2020

Biffins said:
Dude the AFCCG and SB I am referring to was less than 12 months ago.

There’s zip, velocity, etc in his throws. I don’t see any physical diminishment. Pocket movement is fluid. I am sorry but I blame surrounding cast. You just look at results.

You’re saying the passing game has diminished so it must be Brady. The fact the OL is diminished. Run game is non existent. WR talent is pathetic. TE talent is non existent. To you none of these factors matter. You are blaming Brady. When I ask which part of his game do you believe he’s failing on, you don’t have an answer.

Brady can throw deep. He can throw the slants with zip and in a low catchable position away from CB. He moves fluidly to avoid sacks. And he interpets defenses quickly.

There are lots of reasons that the passing game has fallen off a cliff. I don’t believe Brady is one of them and I think BB doesn’t either when he dissects the tape. Once they re-tool the passing game next season and bring some proper WR/TE talent and get some balance with running game, you can give all the credit to the new incoming players. Brady gets all the blame and none of the credit.

2 years ago Brady was NFL MVP. Top 4 passing receivers. Gronk 1084 yards. Cooks 1080 yards, Amendola 659 yards, Hogan 438 yards. Gone, gone, gone, gone. Insane turnover. And all replaced by pathetic talents with the exception of Edelman’s return who is always double covered.

But yeah, let’s blame Brady

Ok, “Dude,” ad hominem attacks and declarative sentences are great. I was trying to engage in a football discussion. I only “look at results.” Is there really a need for this type of nonsense?

A high percentage of his throws are off the mark. The arc on his follow through seems higher, so he’s overthrowing receivers. He’s fine moving in the pocket but less accurate now throwing on the move. Pressure bothers every QB, but it bothers him more now, even on plays where the pressure is limited or nonexistent. There many other little things.

You talk about all that Brady can do. Not one of those attributes is as consistently good as it was in prior years.

First, it was Marshall Newhouse’s fault, then every other OL’s fault and if that excuse fails, it’s the WRs or the TEs. Then last weekend, Newhouse wasn’t on the field, the pass protection was excellent and he played his worst game. Fitz has a lesser offense and he was much more productive under more pressure. So now it’s the toe, the elbow, the cleats. Come on. He’s 42 and you point to one pass in last year’s SB, where he threw a great pass to Gronk but also a bad pick (to Hogan, btw).

I agree his supporting cast isn’t as good as last year’s. But anyone who watched every game this year has to acknowledge that he shoulders some of the blame. He’s the GOAT but he isn’t a God.

TomPatriot · Jan 1, 2020

Soliel said:
All this talk is premature. There’s still the playoffs, what if we win the bowl with substandard receivers? It’s not impossible

I hope Brady proves me wrong. I’ll happily eat crow if Brady channels 2016 and they win the SB.

TomPatriot · Jan 1, 2020

kennyb said:
Mcdaniels needs to go.

I think you’re getting your wish.

Ghost of Ben Dreith · Jan 1, 2020

First of all........the comments in this thread thinking that Stidham could step in and be as good as 2001 Brady are probably wrong. There is a lot more to Brady’s success than game management that 2001 season....never mind all the following seasons. Do you remember what he did in the locker room prior the the Rams 2001 SB game......he slept.

Intelligence......football smarts......good arm....game management skills....etc....a lot of QBs since 2001 have had those good and significant traits. What Brady has had that others have not had is that along with all of that he has that chip on his shoulder and, the icing on the cake....he has balls of steel.....not brass...steel. You don’t make the throws or comebacks he has continuously made over the years in the highest pressure situations without them.

All that being said....if he can’t come back healthy, committed, and at a reasonable price.....I’m OK with moving on. Favre moved on as did Fivehead....I just want it to be a good parting.

Let other high priced talent go and rebuild. I would pay to keep Thuney. Whoever is back there will need a good OL. And if this gets blown up...I think Dante retires for good so it would be nice to have a Dante trained OL in place.
All things end sooner or later.....I’m thinking It may be time with these Pats too.

SammyBlueCat · Jan 1, 2020

Let's say for example that Stidham is the answer.
He has to actually play for a year or two to be certain. No?

Tunescribe · Jan 1, 2020

SammyBlueCat said:
Let's say for example that Stidham is the answer.
He has to actually play for a year or two to be certain. No?

He just has to perform well enough to win and maintain the starting job.

Biffins · Jan 1, 2020

Tunescribe said:
Keep in mind that money could be used elsewhere if Brady moves on and could be significant in keeping the team competitive, assuming Stidham is competent. The gap in ability to move the offense between an aging Brady and an athletic, strong-armed smart youngster is narrowing -- something you couldn't say two years ago.

Stidham’s season with this cast would have been a horror show.

Biffins · Jan 1, 2020

robertweathers said:
At a fundamental level why is he wrong? Explain.

The baseline is Tom getting a 1yr $30m deal.

we don’t know that’s the baseline.

Biffins · Jan 1, 2020

Antdawg said:
Was Brady's big intangible that he was "moldable/coachable"? To me, that is why a guy like Stidham could have big success too with this coaching staff, if he is as moldable as Brady was. Look at Jimmy G, a late 2nd round pick. Rode the bench, was ready for stardom really from day one he stepped off the plane in SF. Yes Jimmy had more time to develop his pro game, but Belichick has shown the ability to mold QBs and help them realize their full potential. Stidham seems to have that potential. If he's a moldable as Jimmy G or Brady, then yeah, I'd be ecstatic to go to Stidham full time in 2020 and build around him.

Think of it this way, if you could go back in time to 2015 and get the 2015 Jimmy G and bring him back to the future to play for the Pats in 2020 (for peanuts!!), part ways with Brady -- would you not do it?? I would in a heartbeat, Brady will be 43. You would have your franchise QB in place for 10+ years minimum and get him at a bargain for a while so you could build around him. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, but wasn't the Stidham draft pick done with the same idea in mind?

Absolutely not. Brady was better than Jimmy G. Brady is better than Jimmy G. And I bet Brady will still be better than Jonny G next 2 years. Brady’s won NFL MVP and a SB since we traded Jimmy and I bet he wins more accolades still.

skinnydog · Jan 1, 2020

TomPatriot said:
Ok, “Dude,” ad hominem attacks and declarative sentences are great. I was trying to engage in a football discussion. I only “look at results.” Is there really a need for this type of nonsense?

A high percentage of his throws are off the mark. The arc on his follow through seems higher, so he’s overthrowing receivers. He’s fine moving in the pocket but less accurate now throwing on the move. Pressure bothers every QB, but it bothers him more now, even on plays where the pressure is limited or nonexistent. There many other little things.

You talk about all that Brady can do. Not one of those attributes is as consistently good as it was in prior years.

First, it was Marshall Newhouse’s fault, then every other OL’s fault and if that excuse fails, it’s the WRs or the TEs. Then last weekend, Newhouse wasn’t on the field, the pass protection was excellent and he played his worst game. Fitz has a lesser offense and he was much more productive under more pressure. So now it’s the toe, the elbow, the cleats. Come on. He’s 42 and you point to one pass in last year’s SB, where he threw a great pass to Gronk but also a bad pick (to Hogan, btw).

I agree his supporting cast isn’t as good as last year’s. But anyone who watched every game this year has to acknowledge that he shoulders some of the blame. He’s the GOAT but he isn’t a God.

Yes, he’s the GOAT, not a god. He can’t transform a below average O Line, a below average receiver core and a terrible TE position into a high powered offense. So yes, not a god. Stick him in the Saints offense and he’d look like, well Drew Brees.

Patstastic · Jan 1, 2020

Antdawg said:
Was Brady's big intangible that he was "moldable/coachable"? To me, that is why a guy like Stidham could have big success too with this coaching staff, if he is as moldable as Brady was. Look at Jimmy G, a late 2nd round pick. Rode the bench, was ready for stardom really from day one he stepped off the plane in SF. Yes Jimmy had more time to develop his pro game, but Belichick has shown the ability to mold QBs and help them realize their full potential. Stidham seems to have that potential. If he's a moldable as Jimmy G or Brady, then yeah, I'd be ecstatic to go to Stidham full time in 2020 and build around him.

Think of it this way, if you could go back in time to 2015 and get the 2015 Jimmy G and bring him back to the future to play for the Pats in 2020 (for peanuts!!), part ways with Brady -- would you not do it?? I would in a heartbeat, Brady will be 43. You would have your franchise QB in place for 10+ years minimum and get him at a bargain for a while so you could build around him. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, but wasn't the Stidham draft pick done with the same idea in mind?

Are you saying you would go back in time and make Jimmy G the starter from 2015- now? Or are you saying you would take Jimmy G in 2020? If it's the former...No. Heck no. Jimmy G doesn't engineer a 25 point comeback to win the Super Bowl. Jimmy G doesn't win MVP in 2017. Jimmy G doesn't overcome a ten point deficit, including converting a 3rd and 18, against the best defense in the NFL ( Jacksonville game) to get to the SB. Jimmy G doesn't put up 500 yards in the SB. While his defense is getting shredded. And Jimmy G sure as heck doesn't go into KC, including converting three third and ten's in OT, and come away with a road playoff win. He doesn't. We've all watched him play. He's not at that level.

It's very doubtful (Understatement ) the Patriots have six SB titles right now if Jimmy G is the QB from 2015 to now. And SB's are all that matters. In the BB TB era, it's always been SB or bust.

Tunescribe · Jan 1, 2020

Biffins said:
Stidham’s season with this cast would have been a horror show.

Unless you have ESP or work in the Patriots organization, you have absolutely no way of knowing what Stidham can or cannot do. But to say he would've brought a "horror show" defies BB's obvious faith in the kid.

Chevrolet · Jan 1, 2020

Tunescribe said:
He just has to perform well enough to win and maintain the starting job.

Stidham or someone at a similar or slihghtly higher price is key in order to give the Patriots a couple of years of cap space in FA market.

If Brady leaves and Stidham is performing well enough to keep the starters job for 1-2 years it would be great as he will be on rookie salary.

If he does not work out could consider 1-2 years of JAG veteran QB who will come relatively cheap e.g.:

Cody Kessler, Brett Hundley, Chase Daniel, AJ Mccaron, Bortles, Glennon, Matt Moore

It would be amazing if they could get a steal in the draft in rounds 2 or 3 for a QB like Jalen Hurt, who I think is very undervalued, tough as nails and athletic but could be very good with solid coaching around him

Unless the team gets unbelievably luck and Stidham outperforms what everyone thinks he can do, 1-3 years of mediocre QB play at best is likely going to happen. Need to bottom out to reach contender status again, most likely.

Boomer B · Jan 1, 2020

Tunescribe said:
Unless you have ESP or work in the Patriots organization, you have absolutely no way of knowing what Stidham can or cannot do. But to say he would've brought a "horror show" defies BB's obvious faith in the kid.

Brady’s play this year had immensely helped the D as well. Brady would throw the ball away and punt rather than risk an INT. Make other opposing O drive the whole field and put your D in a better position. I highly doubt if Stidham played we’d only have 8 picks. More picks thrown, the more short fields you need to defend.

Biffins · Jan 1, 2020

Tunescribe said:
Biffins, like you I've been a Brady loyalist for 19 years but he simply cannot carry this team on his back like he used to. He's human -- he's not the same guy he was last year and will be even less of his "old self" next year. You accuse others here of being "spoilt by Brady’s extraordinary exploits," but perhaps you've been blinded by them. For him to succeed in 2020 the offense must be retooled significantly and the defense must be maintained at its current level of performance. Both prospects primarily hinge on what happens in free agency and the Patriots are comparatively shorthanded with what they have to spend. Again, I'm only talking about 2020, what it will take for New England to build a competitive roster NEXT YEAR. Considering available cap space vs. what other teams have at their disposal is just reality.

Yes it’s reality. And so is retaining Brady so we have a shot at glory. We just need to convince Brady to play for something reasonable so we can give him the best chance to win. I hope he agrees to $25m ish. Last year he seemed to ask for closer to $30-32 after winning the SB.

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