OT: Lamar Jackson

SammyBlueCat said:

With all due respect]t, please re-read my post:

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Over your head.

You mentioned how he was fast & his rushing yards. People see that & chalk him up to "another running QB". And like I said the fact that he can do all those other things doesn't make him a run first QB. It just means he can do **** no one else can.

I wasn't saying you believed that. Again a ton see what he can do in the open field & make an ignorant judgement.

ill support players hitting him less when he stops leaving the pocket.

You leave the pocket you become a runner

When you be come a runner, you get lit the **** up
IMO teams have already been taking it easy on him

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Over your head.

You mentioned how he was fast & his rushing yards. People see that & chalk him up to "another running QB". And like I said the fact that he can do all those other things doesn't make him a run first QB. It just means he can do **** no one else can.

I wasn't saying you believed that. Again a ton see what he can do in the open field & make an ignorant judgement.

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So this discussion, and others like it, have piqued my interest.

How does one define a "running quarterback"? Can it be done using statistics or can it only be done by watching if his first instinct is to run as opposed to going through his progressions?

Who in the NFL are examples of running quarterbacks? Honest question BGC. This thread needs a basis for discussion because it's going around in circles at this point.

The Ravens run option plays ... I think that adds weight to he is a running QB.

IcyPatriot said:

The Ravens run option plays ... I think that adds weight to he is a running QB.

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Under normal circumstances in the NYFL it's a run pass option. The Ravens are running a run run option, with Jackson as the runner.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

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The dark skin/dark football thing is something I observed as well. Other players commented that they did note this when studying film on Jackson, and no one said it in a pejorative way. Not did anyone act like he wasn’t capable of performing at a high level with white skin or a white shirt. Personally, I would be glad to use any advantage, no matter how small. It was really just a factual observation and not a negative racist comment. The entire story is ridiculous. And the tweet is completely absurd, like he isn’t the clear front runner for MVP and topic of every football conversation. Just a manufactured controversy and attempt to apply some racism that doesn’t exist. People have had the same doubts about white QBs who rely on running athleticism to be effective (or with Jackson, the contingent of people believe he does indeed rely on his running which inflates his passing stats, rather than it just enhancing his game.)

You seem like quite a fanboy. It’s pretty annoying that you’re existence is dedicated to proving you were right about your draft evaluation, when the entire argument against Jackson (longevity) has yet to play out. It’s like the Bears declaring they “won” the Khalil Mack trade because he’s really good, when the real issue was about the massive contract and huge bounty given up to acquire him. A couple years later, it seems that victory lap hasn’t aged well if not totally embarrassing.

That Jackson is a successful passer hasn’t been disputed, which you know. That he can be a successful passer without his running skills, and that those running skills can hold up, is what everyone is questioning and using a lot of examples of past cases. I think you already know this but are just continuing to setup the same straw man, which is that everyone is stubborn and can’t admit that Jackson is dominating right now, and he is also able to thrive in the passing game too. No one disputes either or those.

People wishing injury on Jackson are no better than Pats haters doing the same to Brady. I hope he gets healthy and stays healthy. It'll be fascinating to see if the Pats or anyone else can find a way to slow him down this season. SF did a pretty good job of it, but not good enough.

He's a true threat both running and passing right now, but defenses find a way to catch up to 'unstoppable' offenses eventually.

I think the Ravens peaked too soon.

TB_Helmet said:

So this discussion, and others like it, have piqued my interest.

How does one define a "running quarterback"? Can it be done using statistics or can it only be done by watching if his first instinct is to run as opposed to going through his progressions?

Who in the NFL are examples of running quarterbacks? Honest question BGC. This thread needs a basis for discussion because it's going around in circles at this point.

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Jackson is absolutely a running QB or QB that will run. W/e you want to call it.

The narrative, argument, since his college days is if he's a run first QB/One read-take off QB.
That couldn't be further then the truth. The way some talk abt him it's as if he's a RB playing QB. Please take 5-10 mins & search his name going back as far as you can.
OTG said he'd take punters over him & he'd end up working 3rd shift at Mickey D's & this is coming from someone who supposedly watched him in college. Again the bias can't be ignored.

Jackson ran a variation of the EP in college. Apparently some posters here are searching for prospects that run option routes? Jackson was responsible for targeting options almost every time He dropped back.
Knows where where to attack. Took apart C2/C2 invert many times for example. Knows go up the middle/seam if they run verts. Calls out the nickel, nickel backs off? Knows LB has to cover & again will have the flat/shallow underneath zone all day. Again just a few general examples of what you saw as a FR in college.

Jackson can read a defense but also can utilize all of his teammates abilities bc he forces you to defend every inch of the field. Why wouldn't take advantage of that?

More specifically, answering your question bc I'm not trying to rant on or we. Again take a few mins, search his name & you'll the stuff that comes up.

Last year Josh Allen. Trubisky at his worst. Peak examples. Early, early on I guess you could say that abt Vick. All good examples imo.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Jackson is absolutely a running QB or QB that will run. W/e you want to call it.

The narrative, argument, since his college days is if he's a run first QB/One read-take off QB.
That couldn't be further then the truth. The way some talk abt him it's as if he's a RB playing QB. Please take 5-10 mins & search his name going back as far as you can.
OTG said he'd take punters over him & he'd end up working 3rd shift at Mickey D's & this is coming from someone who supposedly watched him in college. Again the bias can't be ignored.

Jackson ran a variation of the EP in college. Apparently some posters here are searching for prospects that run option routes? Jackson was responsible for targeting options almost every time He dropped back.
Knows where where to attack. Took apart C2/C2 invert many times for example. Knows go up the middle/seam if they run verts. Calls out the nickel, nickel backs off? Knows LB has to cover & again will have the flat/shallow underneath zone all day. Again just a few general examples of what you saw as a FR in college.

Jackson can read a defense but also can utilize all of his teammates abilities bc he forces you to defend every inch of the field. Why wouldn't take advantage of that?

More specifically, answering your question bc I'm not trying to rant on or we. Again take a few mins, search his name & you'll the stuff that comes up.

Last year Josh Allen. Trubisky at his worst. Peak examples. Early, early on I guess you could say that abt Vick. All good examples imo.

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Ok, but by those definitions (which are qualitative, which is fine), are there any “run first QBs” in the NFL currently or in the past 20 years? Not counting QBs that come in a couple snaps a game like Hill on the Saints and guys like that.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Jackson is absolutely a running QB or QB that will run. W/e you want to call it.

The narrative, argument, since his college days is if he's a run first QB/One read-take off QB.
That couldn't be further then the truth. The way some talk abt him it's as if he's a RB playing QB. Please take 5-10 mins & search his name going back as far as you can.
OTG said he'd take punters over him & he'd end up working 3rd shift at Mickey D's & this is coming from someone who supposedly watched him in college. Again the bias can't be ignored.

Jackson ran a variation of the EP in college. Apparently some posters here are searching for prospects that run option routes? Jackson was responsible for targeting options almost every time He dropped back.
Knows where where to attack. Took apart C2/C2 invert many times for example. Knows go up the middle/seam if they run verts. Calls out the nickel, nickel backs off? Knows LB has to cover & again will have the flat/shallow underneath zone all day. Again just a few general examples of what you saw as a FR in college.

Jackson can read a defense but also can utilize all of his teammates abilities bc he forces you to defend every inch of the field. Why wouldn't take advantage of that?

More specifically, answering your question bc I'm not trying to rant on or we. Again take a few mins, search his name & you'll the stuff that comes up.

Last year Josh Allen. Trubisky at his worst. Peak examples. Early, early on I guess you could say that abt Vick. All good examples imo.

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But again I think you need to get past the pre-draft comments that were obviously wrong. I don’t think many people are questioning Jackson’s ability to understand a complex offense. The question is whether or not he’d have the constant accuracy and consistently good decision making, while playing chess with defensive coordinators at this level, when/if defenses are NOT forced to defend every inch of the field. Most QBs cannot and are not elite or even good, and they fail. It’s insane to think that his every inch of the field threat doesn’t give him a much easier time as a passer. How would he do when defenses are able to play him like a non-mobile QB and force him to throw tight window passes all over then field with tight coverage and disguises, being able to use safeties in coverage and linebackers not needing to contain him in the pocket? Don’t know yet. Let’s not confuse what he’s doing with that type of skill set, which most QBs ultimately fail at, but which the great ones are able to do year after year.

TB_Helmet said:

Ok, but by those definitions (which are qualitative, which is fine), are there any “run first QBs” in the NFL currently or in the past 20 years? Not counting QBs that come in a couple snaps a game like Hill on the Saints and guys like that.

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Not trying to be a DH but I literally gave you multiple examples?
Are there guys that go through one read & take off every single time? Probably not on that scale but again go watch Allen last year. Out of control. Taking off, throw it away, INT, Sack, fumble etc if any easy read ain't there. Much improved & a lot better, further then I thought he'd be rn.

Trubisky is still that guy although hes someone who hasn't run enough to control his offense. One of his biggest assets they weren't utilizing enough. Again take away his easy **** & he's a wounded animal out there looking to run, by time etc...

Flacco early on except hed TO it over as opposed to run. Dalton same thing.

Early, early Vick & Kap would take off.

Again these peak examples imo. Keep in mind you cant always run after your progression. Defense might be great position & the only play is throw away/TO etc. The intent is still there tho.

Exhausted have to wake up at 5

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Going to start w the 2nd paragraph bc the 1st is foolishness.

Hardly a fanboy. Quite the contrary I'm probably one of the very few that could actually talk his legitimate strengths/concerns etc bc I actually know them.

Again search his name on this forum & its more then clear 99.9% don't have a clue. Again OTG is a supposed draftnik but let his opinion run wild instead of staying objective. Much like most here.

This forum had no idea he ran a variation of the same ****in offense we run so you can see or maybe you can't? I'm simply pointing out facts, not my opinion or anything fanboy-ish. Please quote anything like that at all. It's not there. It's me saying "no he's the furthest thing from a one read guy". It's me saying "actually we wouldn't have to CHANGE our offense bc he ran Petrino version of the EP".

And I'll never apologize for taking credit at nailing draft picks. Nothing wrong w saying I'm better then most if it's true? **** I wish a had a 12 inch **** & was super smart... Nope I'm just blessed w being great at evaluating draft picks.

Not sure why that bothers some? I'm one of VERY FEW people to are transparent abt keeping grades & have no problem being judged on my results. Again what's wrong w what?

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Hope you’ll read my previous post first because it boils down to the same thing. Did the actual, real-life (not theoretical) Louisville EP offense - with Jackson - even resemble the Patriots or any pro offense (no, since his running abilities completely changed many of the concepts and made it much easier to execute.). Do Jackson’s current reads, passes, and difficulty level against defenses resemble what other NFL QBs face (no.). He could have run and understood the most complicated system in the universe. He has yet to prove he can actually execute an offense effectively without the massive advantage that his running threat imposes on defenses. Teams don’t defend the Ravens the same way they’d defend most teams. Teams didn’t defend Louisville like they would the Patriots EP system. Because the Jackson forces matchups that afford much easier passes. Again, good for him. Again, this does not prove he would thrive in the NFL if speed and running abilities decline. It’s so obvious watching him I’m surprised you can’t just acknowledge it’s still an unknown.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Not trying to be a DH but I literally gave you multiple examples?
Are there guys that go through one read & take off every single time? Probably not on that scale but again go watch Allen last year. Out of control. Taking off, throw it away, INT, Sack, fumble etc if any easy read ain't there. Much improved & a lot better, further then I thought he'd be rn.

Trubisky is still that guy although hes someone who hasn't run enough to control his offense. One of his biggest assets they weren't utilizing enough. Again take away his easy **** & he's a wounded animal out there looking to run, by time etc...

Flacco early on except hed TO it over as opposed to run. Dalton same thing.

Early, early Vick & Kap would take off.

Again these peak examples imo. Keep in mind you cant always run after your progression. Defense might be great position & the only play is throw away/TO etc. The intent is still there tho.

Exhausted have to wake up at 5

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Ok didn’t realize that’s what you were doing in that last paragraph.

I haven’t noticed Mitch being a run first qb, he just seems like he’s bad in general. Vick I can see though.

Folks are just really mad that we didn't get Lamar Jackson. Instead, we drafted Sony Michel, a RB with a potentially degenerative knee, who's running worse than LeGarrett Blount did for us.

Fact is, that the Ravens and the Chiefs, two of our recent AFC rivals, got their long-term QB who will probably be in the HOF by the end of their careers, while we don't have anyone worthwhile after Tom Brady, who's declining year-after-year. It's arguable that even the Bills with Josh Allen have a brighter future than the Patriots.

I don't know how much longer Brady will play for the Patriots, but the time is ticking and Belichick needs to find the next guy ASAP.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

You seem like quite a fanboy.

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Needs to be repeated.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Did the actual, real-life (not theoretical) Louisville EP offense - with Jackson - even resemble the Patriots or any pro offense (no, since his running abilities completely changed many of the concepts and made it much easier to execute.). Do Jackson’s current reads, passes, and difficulty level against defenses resemble what other NFL QBs face (no.). He could have run and understood the most complicated system in the universe. He has yet to prove he can actually execute an offense effectively without the massive advantage that his running threat imposes on defenses. Teams don’t defend the Ravens the same way they’d defend most teams. Teams didn’t defend Louisville like they would the Patriots EP system. Because the Jackson forces matchups that afford much easier passes. Again, good for him. Again, this does not prove he would thrive in the NFL if speed and running abilities decline. It’s so obvious watching him I’m surprised you can’t just acknowledge it’s still an unknown.

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How is this not obvious?

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Going to start w the 2nd paragraph bc the 1st is foolishness.

Hardly a fanboy. Quite the contrary I'm probably one of the very few that could actually talk his legitimate strengths/concerns etc bc I actually know them.

Again search his name on this forum & its more then clear 99.9% don't have a clue. Again OTG is a supposed draftnik but let his opinion run wild instead of staying objective. Much like most here.

This forum had no idea he ran a variation of the same ****in offense we run so you can see or maybe you can't? I'm simply pointing out facts, not my opinion or anything fanboy-ish. Please quote anything like that at all. It's not there. It's me saying "no he's the furthest thing from a one read guy". It's me saying "actually we wouldn't have to CHANGE our offense bc he ran Petrino version of the EP".

And I'll never apologize for taking credit at nailing draft picks. Nothing wrong w saying I'm better then most if it's true? **** I wish a had a 12 inch **** & was super smart... Nope I'm just blessed w being great at evaluating draft picks.

Not sure why that bothers some? I'm one of VERY FEW people to are transparent abt keeping grades & have no problem being judged on my results. Again what's wrong w what?

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99.9% dont have a clue.

primetime said:

Steve Young played until he was 38. He had 70 carries for nearly 500 yards at the age of 37.

John Elway averaged 50 carries for 300 yards per season over his career. He retired at 38.

Russell Wilson has never missed a game in his career.

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All of the above were pass first quarterbacks. None ran nearly as often as Jackson.

I think Jackson’s injury happened in the pocket during a pass. It was the long touchdown throw to one of their tight ends. It wasn’t a running play. It could have happened to any QB in the league

Flash said:

Folks are just really mad that we didn't get Lamar Jackson. Instead, we drafted Sony Michel, a RB with a potentially degenerative knee, who's running worse than LeGarrett Blount did for us.

Fact is, that the Ravens and the Chiefs, two of our recent AFC rivals, got their long-term QB who will probably be in the HOF by the end of their careers, while we don't have anyone worthwhile after Tom Brady, who's declining year-after-year. It's arguable that even the Bills with Josh Allen have a brighter future than the Patriots.

I don't know how much longer Brady will play for the Patriots, but the time is ticking and Belichick needs to find the next guy ASAP.

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Jackson and Mahomes aren't locks for the HOF quite yet.